Dodgy rule idea.

[Keve]

I'll state right away that I didn't do this but did think about it.
 Scenario.
I'm in a ditch, I know it's a water hazard it's always been a water hazard but for some strange reason the yellow water hazard markers have been taken away(getting painted maybe?), can I take free relief from casual water then?

[True Blue]

If your conscience will allow it! 

[Tomba]

Dont think so as its water that you know is normally there but for some reason the markers have been removed. I doubt they'd be moved to be painted as its normally a job done on site. Well they did do ours in position this week.

Definition of Casual Water; bolded the parts applicable.

"Casual water" is any temporary accumulation of water on the course that is not in a water hazard and is visible before or after the player takes his stance. Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player.  Manufactured ice is an obstruction. Dew and frost are not casual water.

[Keve]

Tam, define temporary. You might fish in the same spot every week but it'll be a different piece of water if it constantly moves so the water you fish in is only there temporarily. And is a water hazard a water hazard if it's not marked as such.

[ask3l]

if you know it's a ditch,,,IT'S A DITCH!
Might check decision 26/2 to start

[Tomba]

Tam, define temporary. You might fish in the same spot every week but it'll be a different piece of water if it constantly moves so the water you fish in is only there temporarily. And is a water hazard a water hazard if it's not marked as such.

Anything thats not permanent

Where I fish the tide comes in and out but I would still call it permanent.

Straying off track a wee bit, I played Machrihanish a few years ago and the first hole has you playing your tee shot across the beach to a fairway that doglegs. I cut off too much with the tee shot and ended up on the beach. I asked the starter if that was OOB and he said no I had to play it. So i'm not 100% sure.

But if I KNEW there had been stakes defining a hazard then i'd play it as a hazard until I got clarification in the club house.

[MisterS3]

Wasn't there a yellow line painted to define the hazard?

[mattyarse]

But to take Keve's point a step further, let's say I was playing the course for the first time ever, and therefore had no idea of the 'usual' designation of the ditch in question being a water hazard, could I claim relief if there were no markers?

If the answer is yes, then I think Keve's point / question becomes even more interesting as surely there should never be a question of two players playing the same course on the same day potentially treating that same situation differently?

[Blofeld]

But to take Keve's point a step further, let's say I was playing the course for the first time ever, and therefore had no idea of the 'usual' designation of the ditch in question being a water hazard, could I claim relief if there were no markers?

If the answer is yes, then I think Keve's point / question becomes even more interesting as surely there should never be a question of two players playing the same course on the same day potentially treating that same situation differently?

In which case the greenkeepers/course committee should be shot for allowing such a situation to arise.

[MisterS3]

BTW if you play at Pollock Golf Club you'll be used to the posts being nicked to be used as weapons by certain locals (non-golfers) around the golf course.

I think it's pretty obvious even still that is not casual water.

[ask3l]

But to take Keve's point a step further, let's say I was playing the course for the first time ever, and therefore had no idea of the 'usual' designation of the ditch in question being a water hazard, could I claim relief if there were no markers?

If the answer is yes, then I think Keve's point / question becomes even more interesting as surely there should never be a question of two players playing the same course on the same day potentially treating that same situation differently?

As i said earlier, if it looks like a ditch,,, you should both play it the same as the Definitions within the Rules clearly states
"Water Hazard
A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature"
Now what makes that difficult to understand? Not all courses have the luxury of having all water hazzards staked or painted and it isn't a requirement that they are.
If it looks like a ditch, it is a water hazard and you treat it as such.
If it is the Atlantic Ocean, it is a water hazard and you treat it as such, the tide beeing in or out does not make it casual water.  

[Tomba]

As i said earlier, if it looks like a ditch,,, you should both play it the same as the Definitions within the Rules clearly states
"Water Hazard
A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature"
Now what makes that difficult to understand? Not all courses have the luxury of having all water hazzards staked or painted and it isn't a requirement that they are.
If it looks like a ditch, it is a water hazard and you treat it as such.
If it is the Atlantic Ocean, it is a water hazard and you treat it as such, the tide beeing in or out does not make it casual water.  

Andy, see my previous post on Machrihanish. I was playing from the beach and i'm almost sure it wasnt a water hazard.

quick edit: just googled it and found a website that states it is a lateral water hazard :(
Click Here

[Galway Stevie]

There are always disagreements about the water hazards on the Darley as there are no (or few) marker posts. Wouldn't class it as casual water though.

I seem to remember that the beach at Turnberry is an integral part of the course so you play as it lies and it isn't a hazard (I think it only really affects the 4th on Ailsa).

[ask3l]

Andy, see my previous post on Machrihanish. I was playing from the beach and i'm almost sure it wasnt a water hazard.

quick edit: just googled it and found a website that states it is a lateral water hazard :(

Thats OK, every beach i've played off (and there have been a few) have been Laterals so maybe it's just engrained in my head  

[ask3l]

There are always disagreements about the water hazards on the Darley as there are no (or few) marker posts. Wouldn't class it as casual water though.

I seem to remember that the beach at Turnberry is an integral part of the course so you play as it lies and it isn't a hazard (I think it only really affects the 4th on Ailsa).

I seem to remember about 20 years ago, that in the Rules (or was it the Decisions book) the definition was that the margin of a Ditch (in the absence of any markings) was where the ground started to slope down into the ditch. But i don't know where or when it has dissapeared.
I could have DQd so many people on our 2nd hole as there was a ditch in front of the green and on 1 side it was obvious wher the margin was but on the Right it started 10 feet before it started to go down sharply. Every single player who hit it there took however many practice swings grounding the club so could have been done for grounding in a Hazard