vanishing ball

[Mike]

Played a round today with a friend and something came up that had us both puzzled.

On one hole my mate teed off and hit a lovely drive down the middle. The tee is slightly raised and we both saw the full flight of the ball and it bounce before running on down the fairway say 10ft right of a fairway bunker.

But when we got to where we thought the ball would be - nothing. We then spent a few minutes scanning the area but there was no sight of a ball at all.

The ground was pretty firm but in any case having seen the ball skip on we didn't think it could have plugged.

Also, for once, we were very sure of the approximate length given the bunker's position and also in relation to my drive.

It was a friendly knock about so we jokingly concluded a rabbit or something must have run off with it so I let my mate have a free drop where we thought the ball should be and carried on.

But can anyone advise what the correct course of action should be?

As near as damm it we seen the ball come to rest off the drive and I even thought I'd casually taken note of its position when I played my second from my skied drive (on the same line 60yds back).

Cheers.

Mike

[SkankyShanky]

Lost ball, back to the tee and play another I guess. Happened to me in a medal once, but found the ball in a rabbit scrape as I was about to walk back

[Tin Pot]

Indeed, lost ball go back and tee off again.  I've lost a few painfully this way, but tee again is the answer :(

[Chip_Unsure]

We had a fox running out and stealing balls from the 12th fairway last year. It has a big ridge in it so that you couldn't always see the fox run out and grab balls.  For the comps we had a local rule that if everyone was sure the ball landed and stayed in the fairway but couldn't be found it was a free drop.

[ask3l]

With that luck i'd take the hint and NR 

[MisterS3]

Can I be in Mike's group at The Open

[Stu-Pid]

Can I be in Mike's group at The Open

Given the length of the round the last time you were grouped together at The Open, I should bloody well hope not!   

[Tin Pot]

We had a fox running out and stealing balls from the 12th fairway last year. It has a big ridge in it so that you couldn't always see the fox run out and grab balls.  For the comps we had a local rule that if everyone was sure the ball landed and stayed in the fairway but couldn't be found it was a free drop.

you can't have a local rule override a rule of golf.  Unless you see an animal take it, it's just a lost ball - try again.

[Blofeld]

decision 27-1/2.5 seems to be relevant here...

Q: A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency rather than lost, in the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Accordingly he drops a ball where he thinks his original came to rest and plays it, rather than taking the stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball. What is the ruling?

A: In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball had been moved by an outside agency, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the dropped ball under rule 18-1, the player played from the wrong place.

In match play he incurred a penalty of loss of hole.
In stroke play he incurred the stroke and distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that rule (Rule 20-7c ball played from wrong place). Because thew breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c.


So the stroke and distance penalties prescribed in earlier posts are correct.

[mattyarse]

decision 27-1/2.5 seems to be relevant here...

Q: A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency rather than lost, in the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Accordingly he drops a ball where he thinks his original came to rest and plays it, rather than taking the stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball. What is the ruling?

A: In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball had been moved by an outside agency, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the dropped ball under rule 18-1, the player played from the wrong place.

In match play he incurred a penalty of loss of hole.
In stroke play he incurred the stroke and distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that rule (Rule 20-7c ball played from wrong place). Because thew breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c.


So the stroke and distance penalties prescribed in earlier posts are correct.

But does the phrase 'virtual certainty' mean that Chips local rule has grounds?

[Mike]

decision 27-1/2.5 seems to be relevant here...

Q: A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency rather than lost, in the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Accordingly he drops a ball where he thinks his original came to rest and plays it, rather than taking the stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball. What is the ruling?

Thanks for all your posts (apart from Stu - it wasn't our fault that round was slow  ).

I've highlighted above the key point for me - we were virtually certain that the ball was in play and at rest. I know full well that if there's even a hint of reasonable doubt it's a lost ball - but this one was different that's all  

[Stu-Pid]

But does the phrase 'virtual certainty' mean that Chips local rule has grounds?

The key point about Chip's local rule is that they can't see the balls come to rest due to the fact that there was a ridge in the fairway, so I'd say it's impossible to be virtually certain about it.  In Mike's case however, they saw the ball come to rest (I think?) in a specific point on the course, so it is slightly different.

I guess a more extreme version of Mike's point would be if you chipped the ball onto the green from the fringe and watched it come to rest 3 feet from the hole.  You then go and help your playing partner look for his ball in a small gorse bush by the green, and by the time you've spent 5 minutes looking for the ball you turn around to see that your ball is no longer on the green.  Presumably in this instance you can be virtually certain that an outside agency has moved your ball, but is that still the case if you saw it come to rest 250 yards away?

[Jono]

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

Think Chips committee were on thin ice implementing that local rule. If you were virtually certain then you partner was indeed entitled to replace the ball.

But if your so far away from the ball how do you now establish the place of probable play?  .......Nick?

[CapnAhab]

...concluded a rabbit or something must have run off with it...

That text shows there was no certainty in this particular case - lost ball after 5 mins of searching, back to the tee I'm afraid.

Happened to an "opponent" of mine - again a friendly game, but he hit a perfectly on line shot to just short of the green on a par 5.  We watched the ball for 99/100ths of its travel but in picking our bags up and walking to the green we never actually saw it come to rest.  When we got there it wasn't to be found.  Turned out it had rolled into an old winter green hole that had almost sealed itself up after a couple of seasons!

I would also suggest the committee may be in breach of the rules by implementing that particular local rule.

[Jono]

I guess a more extreme version of Mike's point would be if you chipped the ball onto the green from the fringe and watched it come to rest 3 feet from the hole. Presumably in this instance you can be virtually certain that an outside agency has moved your ball, but is that still the case if you saw it come to rest 250 yards away?

One hell of a chip from 250y out Stu. Do you chip with driver off the deck?