Rule debate

[Keve]

I've been having a fairly light hearted debate with out MS over a ruling and I'd so love to win it so I'll put it out there for the rules guru's on here.
Our club has 2 courses which meet each other at a few points but do not have OOB seperating them. For years I have played a few holes on the non medal course before teeing off proper in the medal. I have now been informed that that is deemed practising on the course and due a DQ for doing it. Any loopholes?

[Ant]

Isn't that just the same as hitting balls on the range or practice green beforehand?

[Keve]

Our practise green and area are marked as OOB but the 2nd course isn't. If you hit a ball from one course onto the other you are allowed to play it.

[Stu-Pid]

The rule specifically states:

b. Stroke Play
Before a round or play-off on any day of a stroke play competition, a competitor must not practise on the competition course or test the surface of any putting green on the course by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.

My thought would therefore be that as the second course is not the competition course then it would not be breaking the rule.

I had a quick scan of the decisions online and this was the closest that I could find:

Stroke play to determine the qualifiers for match play was scheduled over 36 holes on consecutive days. Eighteen holes were to be played on the East Course and 18 on the North Course. Any play-off was to be held on the East Course. Several competitors who played their first qualifying round on the East Course wanted to play more golf. They knew that they would be in breach of Rule 7-1b if they played the North Course, so they played the East Course again. After the second qualifying round, one of the competitors was tied for the last qualifier's place. Should he be disqualified from the play-off on the East Course under Rule 7-1b?

The answer was simply that "Yes", but the reason that they have been disqualified seems to be because the competition will continue on the East Course due to the playoff, and if the playoff would have been on the West Course then they would have been fine.  So I would say that this seems to back up that the courses are deemed to be separate and therefore you wouldn't have broken the rule.

Nick will be able to confirm though, and maybe the lack of OB changes things, but if that's the case then I know a few courses where the practice grounds aren't OB and so you wouldn't be able to use the range before comps.

[Tin Pot]

Isn't that just the same as hitting balls on the range or practice green beforehand?

No, you're only allowed to use a defined practice area before a comp.

[Tin Pot]

@Keve

Under rule 33-2 the Comittee must define the bounds of each course and must establish a practice area if one isn't available by nature of defining the bounds of the course.

If you want to win the argument Challenge them to provide these definitions.  If they can't they are in breach, if they can, then the second course won't be the competition course. Huzzah!

[Keve]

We have a defined practise area so would I still win the arguement?

[Blofeld]

I tend to be in agreement with Stu and TP

The second course is not part of the first course and therefore you should be able to play on it. As TP says...they should really formally define the boundaries of the course and where the practise areas are.

However, the committee would be perfectly within their rights to introduce a Condition of Competition that effectively prohibits practice on the "other" course if they wish.

I played in a Suffolk Inter-Club Matchplay comp a few years ago at a club which had a 9 hole course in addition to the main 18 holer....it was a condition of the comp that you could not practice on the 9 holer, even though the match was taking place on the 18 hole course.

[Tin Pot]

We have a defined practise area so would I still win the arguement?

Have they defined each course?

[Keve]

No as I said you can play errant shots from each course without penalty at the moment.

[Keve]

Right guys I'm losing this one he has replied stating the boundary is the edge of the clubs property which includes the 2 courses. No different to St Andrew's Old & New.

[Stu-Pid]

Regardless of whether there is OB to define the courses or not, the fact that they are both measured courses recognised as being fit for competition should mean that they are separate entities surely?  If the competition is over a defined 18 hole course then other defined courses on the same plot of land should be in play IMO.

[BigJim]

What holes do you play on the Antonine as a warm up? After going down and up that hill I'd be too knackered to play the other course......

[Tin Pot]

Regardless of whether there is OB to define the courses or not, the fact that they are both measured courses recognised as being fit for competition should mean that they are separate entities surely?  If the competition is over a defined 18 hole course then other defined courses on the same plot of land should be in play IMO.

33-2 a. Defining Bounds and Margins
The Committee must define accurately:
(i) the course and out of bounds,

Common sense would seem that the committee should define two distinct courses, as well as out of bounds.  I would consider writing to the R&A, but you'd have to be prepared for the Committee's wrath.

It seems from Keve's response that they haven't. They have one single course defined...with 36 holes in it!  I suppose it depends on the precise design, but one would have thought that you would place boundary markers to divide the courses, if nothing else, to stop people playing from the wrong course and getting in each other's way.

Madness, Keve. You have my sympathy.

[golf_bhoy]

Madness is a bit of an exaggeration.  The current MS is responsible for the OB stakes on the practice ground and the practice putting green, and making sure the greenkeepers mark BOTH sides of the hazards with appropriate coloured stakes (previously some were marked on one side only!).

The only real "crossover" I can picture is Antonine 18th/Carrickstone 7th; I have seen hooked tee shots from A18 ending up just behind or close to the green on C7, and tee shots from C7 ending up in the long grass between A18 and C7.  Both are still in play so technically, MS is correct.  They are "the same course".

I wish I could do the map thingy and point out the "joins" between the courses but I'm not very good with them ...