Pairs Matchplay

[Mike]

Played in a national pairs comp yesterday against two guys from a fairly well to do club 30 miles away. The tie was at theirs and we'd arranged to meet with them for a coffee half and hour before the tee time. All pleasant but they were full of "Bob's the best driver in the club" and "Yes Steve but you're the best putter" etc  

For my partner and I it was effectively our first ever pairs matchplay and the other pair were all very old hat - they said they'd won their club pairs title 3 times in the last ten years etc.

1) They announced that they'd both had a increase in handicap since the draw and proceeded to make the shot calculations. It was decided I was getting 6 shots off the lowest of them, my parter was getting 8 and we duly marked out cards to this effect. On the first extra hole (SI 6) I parred and thought it was enough to win the tie with my shot. But the other team then claimed they'd made a mistake that morning in the calculations and I should only have gotten five shots. I was given a shot on the first hole. Yes I know we should have been more on top of it but in the heat of the match we shrugged our shoulders and carried on to the 20th. What could/should we have done?

2) on the 17th hole they only had one ball in play and it was in the deep rough near the green. In preparing for the shot the guy was ripping up the long grass like nobody's business - and sending it flying. I objected but he countered saying he could do what he wanted as long as it was not in his stance (he had stepped back maybe 4/6 inches). Thoughts?

3) on the 8th hole one of their balls went  into a huge bunker greenside. He shanked the ball and it flew 20 ft at right angles into the other corner of the same bunker. He then raked his first position before going to play his ball again. I felt that wasn’t right but let it go as he was not really in contention. Should I have penalised him?

4) on the 20th hole we had attracted about a dozen club members to follow our match (i.e. our opponent’s mates). On the 20th tee one of them hooked the hell out of the ball and moaned aloud. On the way down the fairway one his mates gave him a little lesson (borrowing his club discussing stance etc). Again I thought that’s not right but the atmosphere was already pretty tense and I just felt my partner and I were the stronger pair. What could I have done?

To cut a long story short there were loads of other niggles but we beat the gnarly old bastards a few extra holes later thanks to the best 5 iron Par 3 I’ve ever hit!

[SkankyShanky]

#2 I think if you consider it improving his lie or if his ball was moving that would be a penalty.

I think #3 is OK. #4 sounds v. dodgy.

No idea about #1 but well done for beating them. Sound like a pair of cheats.

[cobra4]

well done on getting through and knocking the leather wedges out

[Ian]

Great win and must feel better under the circumstances

[MisterS3]

Knowing the rules would have saved you quite a bit of fun

Well done though

[Mike]

Knowing the rules would have saved you quite a bit of fun

Well done though

Cheers  It was fun to be part of. The funny thing was the more they tried it on the more determined and confident my partner and I got.

Can anyone advise on my first query above? Also, who determines if it's improving a lie - the player or his opponent?

Cheers

Mike

[JohnC]

I was under the impression that it was a players own responsibility to know when he was getting shots. I take it you didn't check their calculations prior to starting the game?

[Mike]

I was under the impression that it was a players own responsibility to know when he was getting shots. I take it you didn't check their calculations prior to starting the game?

We didnt check properly no   It was all chaotic and confusing with their revised handicaps as well. Wont make the same mistake again.

I just thought on that point that there'd be some rule that said if you were given a shot in regular play that you'd also get it in the extra holes.

Anyway, on to the next round  

[srp973]

Played in a national pairs comp yesterday against two guys from a fairly well to do club 30 miles away. The tie was at theirs and we'd arranged to meet with them for a coffee half and hour before the tee time. All pleasant but they were full of "Bob's the best driver in the club" and "Yes Steve but you're the best putter" etc  

For my partner and I it was effectively our first ever pairs matchplay and the other pair were all very old hat - they said they'd won their club pairs title 3 times in the last ten years etc.

1) They announced that they'd both had a increase in handicap since the draw and proceeded to make the shot calculations. It was decided I was getting 6 shots off the lowest of them, my parter was getting 8 and we duly marked out cards to this effect. On the first extra hole (SI 6) I parred and thought it was enough to win the tie with my shot. But the other team then claimed they'd made a mistake that morning in the calculations and I should only have gotten five shots. I was given a shot on the first hole. Yes I know we should have been more on top of it but in the heat of the match we shrugged our shoulders and carried on to the 20th. What could/should we have done?

2) on the 17th hole they only had one ball in play and it was in the deep rough near the green. In preparing for the shot the guy was ripping up the long grass like nobody's business - and sending it flying. I objected but he countered saying he could do what he wanted as long as it was not in his stance (he had stepped back maybe 4/6 inches). Thoughts?

3) on the 8th hole one of their balls went  into a huge bunker greenside. He shanked the ball and it flew 20 ft at right angles into the other corner of the same bunker. He then raked his first position before going to play his ball again. I felt that wasn’t right but let it go as he was not really in contention. Should I have penalised him?

4) on the 20th hole we had attracted about a dozen club members to follow our match (i.e. our opponent’s mates). On the 20th tee one of them hooked the hell out of the ball and moaned aloud. On the way down the fairway one his mates gave him a little lesson (borrowing his club discussing stance etc). Again I thought that’s not right but the atmosphere was already pretty tense and I just felt my partner and I were the stronger pair. What could I have done?

To cut a long story short there were loads of other niggles but we beat the gnarly old bastards a few extra holes later thanks to the best 5 iron Par 3 I’ve ever hit!

For me I'll add the following -

Point 1 - lesson to be learnt from this is to be implicitly clear - state up front clearly how many shots - do it yourself as a team even if the other pair have - then there is no arguement.

Point 2 - tbh difficult to challenge - key is improving stance or lie - being 4 to 5 ft away should be OK really.

Point 3 - is definitely a penalty - you cannot rake a bunker if you have left the ball in - this even applies in foursomes golf where your partner has left the ball in - penalty is loss of hole in matchplay or 2 shots in strokeplay.

Point 4 - again is a penalty for receiving outside coaching - should have been loss of hole as above.

Wrt to shots on extra holes - yes you receive them again if you got a shot on the 1st......this is why CONGU recommend nothing lower than SI 6 for the 1st hole.

Well done for winning - don't focus too much on the past now and learn from it for the future - get yourself a little rules guide to keep in your bag for times like these - there is not a better feeling than telling a cocky know-it-all he's wrong and being able to prove it!

[SkankyShanky]

RE #3 - this is on R&A website:

After making the stroke, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If the ball is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

So it sounds like you can rake if the next shot is not from the same bit of the bunker, as it was here.

EDIT -seems like it is OK - decision 13-4/36:

13-4/36 Smoothing Irregularities in Bunker After Stroke But Before Ball Extricated

Q. A makes a stroke in a bunker but fails to extricate his ball from the bunker. He smoothes irregularities in the area where the stroke was made. The smoothing does not breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. However, B, his opponent, claims that the smoothing assisted A in his subsequent play of the hole because it constituted testing the consistency of the sand. Is B right?

A. No. In such circumstances Exception 2 to Rule 13-4 permits smoothing, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2

[Stu-Pid]

1) They announced that they'd both had a increase in handicap since the draw and proceeded to make the shot calculations. It was decided I was getting 6 shots off the lowest of them, my parter was getting 8 and we duly marked out cards to this effect. On the first extra hole (SI 6) I parred and thought it was enough to win the tie with my shot. But the other team then claimed they'd made a mistake that morning in the calculations and I should only have gotten five shots. I was given a shot on the first hole. Yes I know we should have been more on top of it but in the heat of the match we shrugged our shoulders and carried on to the 20th. What could/should we have done?

How many shots should you have been receiving?  (Let us know the HCs of all 4 players if you're not sure and we'll work it out.)  If you should have been receiving 6 shots then you should obviously have received a shot again on the 19th hole, but if you shouldn't have then I'm guessing that you actually benefited from their initial mistake.  As you cannot change the result of a hole once agreed on (i.e. you can't realise 2 holes later that you should have been getting a shot and then decide you actually won a hole you said that you halved) then they couldn't have claimed the 1st hole retrospectively, but they can deny you a shot that you're not entitled to the next time that you play the hole.  As Simon said, make sure that you know how many shots you are giving/ receiving and agree on it before teeing off.  Don't just trust what they tell you!


2) on the 17th hole they only had one ball in play and it was in the deep rough near the green. In preparing for the shot the guy was ripping up the long grass like nobody's business - and sending it flying. I objected but he countered saying he could do what he wanted as long as it was not in his stance (he had stepped back maybe 4/6 inches). Thoughts?

This depends on whether he improved his lie or not.  I'm guessing that he was just practising the shot on an area that was similar to where his ball was laying, which is perfectly fine as long as his ball does not move and he doesn't improve the lie of the ball or his stance (or an area in his line of play).


3) on the 8th hole one of their balls went  into a huge bunker greenside. He shanked the ball and it flew 20 ft at right angles into the other corner of the same bunker. He then raked his first position before going to play his ball again. I felt that wasn’t right but let it go as he was not really in contention. Should I have penalised him?

I don't think that this is a penalty as long as he was doing it to save time and wasn't improving his lie/ stance or testing the condition of the bunker. Wasn't there a pro that did something similar to this which lead to a rule change?


4) on the 20th hole we had attracted about a dozen club members to follow our match (i.e. our opponent’s mates). On the 20th tee one of them hooked the hell out of the ball and moaned aloud. On the way down the fairway one his mates gave him a little lesson (borrowing his club discussing stance etc). Again I thought that’s not right but the atmosphere was already pretty tense and I just felt my partner and I were the stronger pair. What could I have done?

Definitely not allowed and I assume loss of hole (or at least his ball) in 4BBB.  I guess it slightly depends on if he asked for assistance, or if someone told him against his wishes.

[Tin Pot]

Skanky was that after or before the Furyk affair?

Tutoring during a hole is a complete no no

[Mike]

Thanks guys. Really appreciate your replies.

[SBL]

I may be wrong, often am.
I would suspect that raking the bunker before playing his next shot from the same bunker would be classed as testing the sand.

[Blofeld]

I may be wrong, often am.
I would suspect that raking the bunker before playing his next shot from the same bunker would be classed as testing the sand.

In this case the player is considered to have all ready 'tested the sand by the sheer nature of having played a shot from it...so the subsequent raking is OK.