SureShot - legal in comps or not?

[MisterS3]

FWIW - i take no pleasure in posting that info. And i think it's stupid decision in many respects.

But glad to have some definitive info, rather than me just guessing and getting it wrong,.......now back to 3/4 and stableford

[Blofeld]

The Sureshot is illegal for play in competitions simply becasue of its feature where it can recommend which club to hit for your next shot based on the information youve fed it about previous shots.

I (along with John Corbett - another member on GolfMagic at the time ) raised this point with Sureshots manufacturers 2 years ago. At first they claimed ignorance and said that as golfers themselves they knew the rules and claimed it was OK - but eventually they must have realised that they were in the wrong as they introduced a "competition mode" where you could disable the Club Recommendation feature of the Sureshot device.

Exactly the same thing happened with Motocaddy when they introduced the S3 and its temperature gauge. I told them they were introducing equipment which breached the rules....they told me I didnt know what i was talking about....they then sold S3's with black sticky tape to cover up the bit of the display that showed temperature....finally they introduced a Competition mode where you could turn the offending feature off and offerred a retro fit of a new PCB to the early S3's.

[JohnC]

I thought Banditdude said he had the new Sureshot and it has the 'club recommendation' facility?

[MisterS3]

I thought Banditdude said he had the new Sureshot and it has the 'club recommendation' facility?

I guess it was A new SureShot rather than THE new SureShot 8800

Otherwise Nick and John will be 'sharpening their pencils' :chuckles:

[Galway Stevie]

I think that form what I have read the Sureshots Club recommendation feature can be "interpreted" by clubs as an illegal device but has not been deemed as such by the R&A.

i will send Sureshot a mail to clarify their stance on this. 

[Blofeld]

I guess it was A new SureShot rather than THE new SureShot 8800

Otherwise Nick and John will be 'sharpening their pencils' :chuckles:

Well...yes 2 years ago it was the original Sureshot.

I had a bee in my bonnet at the time about what  I percieved to be manufacturers pushing the envelope with regards introducing equipment that was "non-conforming" with the intent of getting the rules ammended so that their product had a "unique selling point" in the marketplace.

I had no axe to grind other than that....indeed, in the case of Motocaddy I was allready the happy owner of an S1 and had nothing but good to say about the company.

[ajmooseman]

Sorry to jump in on this heightend discussion, but as a sureshot owner (not a new one) are you saying that my device is illegal? It has the facility to turn of club selection which I do, but dose the R&A say that is not good enough??

[Blofeld]

Sorry to jump in on this heightend discussion, but as a sureshot owner (not a new one) are you saying that my device is illegal? It has the facility to turn of club selection which I do, but dose the R&A say that is not good enough??

I believe that if the facility is disabled (by turning off) then the device is conforming. Sureshot had to introduce this ability to disable the feature following err..."consumer feedback" shall we call it? I believe that this action met with R&A approval.

The GM poster (John Corbett) I referred to in my earlier post indeed returned his original Sureshot to the company at that time and got a full refund on the basis that the product was non-conforming. (I know this becasue John sold me his old Skycaddie SG2 and we had several discussions on the subject!!).

[Banditdude]

I spoke with my club pro today about our own local rule on the use of GPS devices, i was told they are allowed,even in club competition, i then said that mine was a Sureshot and it had club recommendation, was i able to use that feature in comps, his reply was YES, the only other features that aren't allowed are tempreture,wind,or the gradient of slopes, the club suggestion is legal as it does not take in facts like slope,wind, temp,or weather your stuck behind a flamin huge tree, it only gives distance from the ball to green.

As for the sureshot i have, i was bought the sureshot 8800 for Xmas,but it was not recieving the satalites,so i returned it and bought another. The R&A do allow them according to my pro and its up th the Eden, or St Andrews links if they are the governing body weather its a local rule, personally i will disable mine for the event at the Eden as i know what i hit my clubs, its not in any way an advantage as we do know what to hit a certain distance, more illegal i would have thought was skycaddies showing the shape of the greens.

[Banditdude]

Just been reading the thread in golfmagic that MisterS3 highlighted, it says the sureshot 8800 DOES NOT have club recommendation,i can assure you mine did, so i don't understand that.

[Blofeld]

I spoke with my club pro today about our own local rule on the use of GPS devices, i was told they are allowed,even in club competition, i then said that mine was a Sureshot and it had club recommendation, was i able to use that feature in comps, his reply was YES, the only other features that aren't allowed are tempreture,wind,or the gradient of slopes, the club suggestion is legal as it does not take in facts like slope,wind, temp,or weather your stuck behind a flamin huge tree, it only gives distance from the ball to green.

I'm not sure he's right. I think he's muddling the element of the suggested local rule (allowing distance measuring devices) that describes how DMD's are still illegal if they measure wind, gradient etc (even if these features are not used) with the general rule pertaining to "advice".

The device (if the club selection facility is not turned off) breaches rule 14 (my opinion) becasue it is an artificial device that can provde advice on club selection. The bit in red is the bit where I think it falls foul of rule 14 on advice matters....

The R&A reserves the right, at any time, to change the Rules relating to artificial devices, unusual equipment and the unusual use of equipment, and to make or change the interpretations relating to these Rules.
A player in doubt as to whether use of an item would constitute a breach of Rule 14-3 should consult the R&A.
A manufacturer should submit to the R&A a sample of an item to be manufactured for a ruling as to whether its use during a stipulated round would cause a player to be in breach of Rule 14-3.  The sample becomes the property of the R&A for reference purposes. If a manufacturer fails to submit a sample or, having submitted a sample, fails to await a ruling before manufacturing and/or marketing the item, the manufacturer assumes the risk of a ruling that use of the item would be contrary to the Rules.

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment, or use any equipment in an unusual manner:
a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play; or
c. That might assist him in gripping the club, except that:
(i) plain gloves may be worn;
(ii) resin, powder and drying or moisturising agents may be used; and
(iii) a towel or handkerchief may be wrapped around the grip.
Exceptions:
1. A player is not in breach of this Rule if (a) the equipment or device is designed for or has the effect of alleviating a medical condition, (b) the player has a legitimate medical reason to use the equipment or device, and (c) the Committee is satisfied that its use does not give the player any undue advantage over other players.
2. A player is not in breach of this Rule if he uses equipment in a traditionally accepted manner.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 14-3:
Disqualification.

I'd suggest that suggesting which club to hit for the next shot is "assistance in play from an artificial device".

[BigJim]

I spoke with my club pro today about our own local rule on the use of GPS devices, i was told they are allowed,even in club competition, i then said that mine was a Sureshot and it had club recommendation, was i able to use that feature in comps, his reply was YES, the only other features that aren't allowed are tempreture,wind,or the gradient of slopes, the club suggestion is legal as it does not take in facts like slope,wind, temp,or weather your stuck behind a flamin huge tree, it only gives distance from the ball to green.

As for the sureshot i have, i was bought the sureshot 8800 for Xmas,but it was not recieving the satalites,so i returned it and bought another. The R&A do allow them according to my pro and its up th the Eden, or St Andrews links if they are the governing body weather its a local rule, personally i will disable mine for the event at the Eden as i know what i hit my clubs, its not in any way an advantage as we do know what to hit a certain distance, more illegal i would have thought was skycaddies showing the shape of the greens.

Did the pro sell you it by any chance?

The club recommendation thing is regarded as being similar to asking another golfer for advice on what club to play, so it's definitely not legal to use that feature in a competition.

The shape of the green is a factual thing that can be found out before the game - otherwise strokesavers and the green maps that some courses give you showing pins positions would be illegal...

[Blofeld]

Follow the link below to a thread started by John Corbett over on GM back in 2005.

The main text in his opening post is a copy of some email correspondence between myself and Claire Bates, Assistant Director - Equipment Standards at the R&A.

http://www.golfmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/dt/4/UTN/19408/

Also have a look at the 7th post down from Colinski where he says that Sureshot have released a software upgrade to the Sureanalysis software package (which came with the Sureshot) that meant that you could only activate the club recommendation feature from within the PC app.

This allowed the club recommendation feature to be turned off so the device was legal in competitions. 

I dont beleive that the rules regarding DMD's or "artificial devices giving advice" has changed since May 2005 so a Sureshot with the club recommendation facility still active is "illegal" for competetive play.Even Rod Brown the MD of Motocaddy effectively admitted they were illegal (on page 2 of the above quoted thread) with the club suggestion feature activated.

My apologies for relinking to a thread duplicating allready linked to by MS3. I knew that at some time in the deep past I'd emailed the R&A to get clarity on the sureshot Club Recommendation facility and was overly excited that I'd found someone quoting my email.

[Banditdude]

Did the pro sell you it by any chance?

The club recommendation thing is regarded as being similar to asking another golfer for advice on what club to play, so it's definitely not legal to use that feature in a competition.

No the pro didn't sell me it, i have to say that this is our local ruling,for comps within our own club, not if we visit any club in comp, so  it may be that the true ruling is that it should not be used,just saying that my own club is allowing it, but it still hasn`t been yes or no for Eden.

[BigJim]

No the pro didn't sell me it, i have to say that this is our local ruling,for comps within our own club, not if we visit any club in comp, so  it may be that the true ruling is that it should not be used,just saying that my own club is allowing it, but it still hasn`t been yes or no for Eden.

Your own club can't choose to ignore the R+A's rules for competitions governed by that body and the SGU.

As I've said, I don't have any issue with you using it at the Eden, and I dont think anybody will - maybe you should just PM Runonpark and ask for a definitive answer.