SureShot - legal in comps or not?

[georgiemac]

It might be worthwhile one of you putting a thread on GM asking about this. Two of the members there (DH and Rules Doc) are rules officials and I have yet to see either of them stumped by a rules question/query.
FWIW as an outsider not playing in the event, Banditudes pro is wrong re: the club selection feature. It falls under advice in the rules and is therefore illegal for competition play. Also as stated above the club can not introduce a local rule which disregards a rule of golf.

[JohnC]

Follow the link below to a thread started by John Corbett over on GM back in 2005.

The main text in his opening post is a copy of some email correspondence between myself and Claire Bates, Assistant Director - Equipment Standards at the R&A.

http://www.golfmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/dt/4/UTN/19408/

Also have a look at the 7th post down from Colinski where he says that Sureshot have released a software upgrade to the Sureanalysis software package (which came with the Sureshot) that meant that you could only activate the club recommendation feature from within the PC app.

This allowed the club recommendation feature to be turned off so the device was legal in competitions. 
I dont beleive that the rules regarding DMD's or "artificial devices giving advice" has changed since May 2005 so a Sureshot with the club recommendation facility still active is "illegal" for competetive play.Even Rod Brown the MD of Motocaddy effectively admitted they were illegal (on page 2 of the above quoted thread) with the club suggestion feature activated.

My apologies for relinking to a thread duplicating allready linked to by MS3. I knew that at some time in the deep past I'd emailed the R&A to get clarity on the sureshot Club Recommendation facility and was overly excited that I'd found someone quoting my email.

The club recommendation facility can only be turned off/on from the PC software,so what you're saying is that they are perfectly legal in comps as long as it's turned off? 

[Banditdude]

FWIW as an outsider not playing in the event, Banditudes pro is wrong re: the club selection feature. It falls under advice in the rules and is therefore illegal for competition play. Also as stated above the club can not introduce a local rule which disregards a rule of golf.

I was surprised to say the least after what i've read and heard on here that i can use it, the fact that it doesn`t take slope into account was ok, i will be disabling that feature in the off chance he has it wrong as would be the case according to what available to read, must take that point up with him again.
 

[Blofeld]

The club recommendation facility can only be turned off/on from the PC software,so what you're saying is that they are perfectly legal in comps as long as it's turned off? 

That is my interpretation.

[georgiemac]

If there is any uncertainty over this and to save any arguments, then why dont sureshot owners playing in the event just stick black tape over the screen as Motocaddy did for the S3?



 

[BigJim]

Or if it's more helpful, just print this out and stick it over the screen




                                            148 Yds

[JohnC]

If there is any uncertainty over this and to save any arguments, then why dont sureshot owners playing in the event just stick black tape over the screen as Motocaddy did for the S3?



 

 :laugh: :laugh:

[golf_bhoy]

Best advice I would give anyone regarding Rules - "When in doubt, do nowt.".  Leave the feckin thing at home or better still, send it to a recycle centre where it can be reformed into something useful.

If you were in any doubt whether your driver might be against the Rules you wouldn't put it it in your bag.  Why carry a dmd that carries the same element of doubt?

One thing I've noticed over the years is the number of golfers playing in comps who haven't a clue about some of the basic Rules, and it bugs the crap out of me to have to send an opponent back to the tee for a lost ball on a par 3 when he wanted to "just drop one here and play my third" from somewhere near the vicinity of the green, because "That's the Rule and it's what me and my mates do in a medal ...".  Dorks.

[Blofeld]

One thing I've noticed over the years is the number of golfers playing in comps who haven't a clue about some of the basic Rules, and it bugs the crap out of me to have to send an opponent back to the tee for a lost ball on a par 3 when he wanted to "just drop one here and play my third" from somewhere near the vicinity of the green, because "That's the Rule and it's what me and my mates do in a medal ...".  Dorks.

Yep. He should be dropping his ball and playing four. Not three.

 

[True Blue]

It might be worthwhile one of you putting a thread on GM asking about this. Two of the members there (DH and Rules Doc) are rules officials and I have yet to see either of them stumped by a rules question/query.

I got the better of them a couple of days ago!

Have it!

[ajmooseman]

The club recommendation facility can only be turned off/on from the PC software,so what you're saying is that they are perfectly legal in comps as long as it's turned off? 

LOL Just been to get my from the car,as I was 100% sure that I could change the club recommendation settings from the handset aswell....but i stand corrected...Mine is one of the very first so they must  have changed it with a software update.

[JohnC]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about Sureshots or GPS's in general. If a caddy can tell a player it's a 150 yards to the middle of the green and a GPS can do the same, what's the difference?

[BigJim]

John, I'd agree, and it's not that that's in contention, its if the device tells you "150yds, that's a 7 iron"

This is judged as outside advice i.e. just like asking your opponent what club he used. Yes, you could get the same info from your playing partner or caddie, but they are judged as an extension of you.

Remember that the rule covers all DMDs, not just the one that you have, and they are all inherently capable of taking into account more than just the horizontal distance between you and  the pin. e.g. Hotbaws laser rangefinder will easily tell you the distance to the pin, the real distance i.e. up or down the slope and the height difference I believe, thus giving info that is not legal. Similarly, your GPS device also gets height co-ordinates for where you are and where the green is, and it COULD take these into consideration, and base a club recommendation on this.

It would be almost impossible to prove one way or another whether this was happening, hence, depite it being a seemingly trivial matter based on the equipment that you have, the rules have to take consideration of everything that is and could become available

[Stu-Pid]

John, I'd agree, and it's not that that's in contention, its if the device tells you "150yds, that's a 7 iron"

As an example of this, I was playing at Hankley Common in a MSG event and on the last hole had 140 yards to the front of the green, with the pin cut on the front and a very deep hollow just in front of the green.  I knew I had 140 yards exactly as that's what my Skydcaddie SG2.5 told me.  I then hit the perfect shot, all over the pin and looking fantastic, only to see it drop into the hollow in front of the green about 10 yards short.  What had happened?  I'd pulled out my 9 iron instead of my 8 iron as I was momentarily confused about what club I hit 140 yards.  A chip and 2 putts later I walked off with a bogey. 

If I would have had the Sureshot with the club recommendation feature turned on, I would have had 8 iron flashing on the screen and I would have had a putt for birdie instead.

When you think about it, it does seem to be an odd rule that you can have a piece of paper with your distances written on them in front of you, and then use that in conjunction with your GPS to get the same info, but the rules have to cover every possible scenario.  As people have mentioned, the fact that a GPS could give you club advice based on wind speed, temperature and elevation means that it could offer an unfair advantage, and so it's simpler to limit the information that you can get from a GPS to purely distance.

[JohnC]

John, I'd agree, and it's not that that's in contention, its if the device tells you "150yds, that's a 7 iron"
This is judged as outside advice i.e. just like asking your opponent what club he used. Yes, you could get the same info from your playing partner or caddie, but they are judged as an extension of you.

Remember that the rule covers all DMDs, not just the one that you have, and they are all inherently capable of taking into account more than just the horizontal distance between you and  the pin. e.g. Hotbaws laser rangefinder will easily tell you the distance to the pin, the real distance i.e. up or down the slope and the height difference I believe, thus giving info that is not legal. Similarly, your GPS device also gets height co-ordinates for where you are and where the green is, and it COULD take these into consideration, and base a club recommendation on this.

It would be almost impossible to prove one way or another whether this was happening, hence, depite it being a seemingly trivial matter based on the equipment that you have, the rules have to take consideration of everything that is and could become available

I am aware of that Jim, but on mine this function is disabled. Going on previous posts this seems to make it legal.............. or does it? Confused or what?? 

Anyone want to buy a SureShot :( ....... One careful, if somewhat confused, owner.