Another ruling.

[Keve]

Note the wording, was expecting a dig from my playing partner Golfbhoy but it never came so I assumed I was okay/ignored it and hoped for the best.
At the 2nd hole one of the other team, a newbieish member hit a shot thought the green I was furthest ahead and saw how deep the rough was he'd went into. He started to walk and I said he should 'maybe hit a provisional'. In the end he did hit one and he did lose the 1st. I said it purely as the next group were on the tee and it would save 3 or 4 minute if he had to walk back.
Does the use of the word maybe stop it being advise?

[BigJim]

You didn't give him any advice on his golf. In theory, the result was the same whether he hit the provisional or walked back and played another.

Anyway, offering advice isn't a breach of rules is it? It's asking for it that is.

[Keve]

Nope giving advise is against the rules, just looked it up.

[SkankyShanky]

Offering advice is a breach, but surely this was not advice; you were making him aware of his options in an effort to avoid slow play. You didn't tell him what club to use, how to swing, suggest a line etc


This particular scenario happens all the time at our club and no-one is ever picked up for it.

[Galway Stevie]

I see that one the same as giving advice on options for a penalty or free drop and is not advice that is against the rules. Possibly saying you should maybe hit a provisional and take one club less would be a breach of rules.

[ajmooseman]

That's a good one Kev!
I've never even thought of it but it must happen nearly once a round in over 4 ball.

Player 1 Smashes one of the tee
Player 2 "oh that's tight I'd hit another if I was you"
Player 1 " you think"
Player 3 " yup that's tight, i think it's gone"
Player 4 " yeh your shit hit another"

[SBL]

I don't think that is considered advice as far as the rules are concerned. If you'd told him to hit a provisional and take a 3 iron instead of driver then you would be in trouble but not as it is as far as I can see.

[Stu-Pid]

I wouldn't deem it as advice either, you are simply making him aware of his options and possibly stopping an undue delay in play.  Telling someone about the features of a hole isn't advice either, so it doesn't change due to you mentioning the heavy rough.

[Longshot]

I guess it doesn't alter anything but the time it takes you to finish the hole. Neither of you gain an advantage there.

It doesn't alter whether his ball ends up being lost.

You have no idea whether his 'provisional' ends up better or worse than if he loses the ball and chooses to go back and replay afterwards.

[Tin Pot]

I'm sorry guys but it is advice and a breach of the rules.  Any advice on the shot to take is a breach, and advising unplayable, or provisional or anything like that is a breach.

I'll find the quote later, but I'm certain on this one.

Here you go:

8/1 16 Suggesting to Competitor That He Declare His Ball Unplayable

B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: “You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would declare the ball unplayable.”
Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B “in determining his play”. Thus, it constituted advice – see Definition of “Advice”. It did not constitute “information on the Rules”, which is not advice.

It doesn't matter which rule it relates to, he is advising the guy on how to play.   

I believe you can get away with merely stating the options the rules allow for, a long as there is no indication that you are suggesting a particular option over another.

[Stu-Pid]

I'm sorry guys but it is advice and a breach of the rules.  Any advice on the shot to take is a breach, and advising unplayable, or provisional or anything like that is a breach.

I'll find the quote later, but I'm certain on this one.

Here you go:

It doesn't matter which rule it relates to, he is advising the guy on how to play.   

I believe you can get away with merely stating the options the rules allow for, a long as there is no indication that you are suggesting a particular option over another.

Sorry TP, but I don't think that rule applies here.  Stating that someone should probably play a provisional and stating that someone should declare their ball unplayable are 2 very different things.  Hitting a provisional in no way changes the way someone plays a hole, it simply helps the pace of play.  Advising someone to declare a ball unplayable may help them achieve a lower (or higher!) score than they would have otherwise have achieved, so you have directly affected the outcome of the player's score.  If Kev's opponent would have lost his ball, he would have returned to the spot he played his last shot and hit another, exactly the same as hitting a provisional - the outcome is the same either way.

Advice
“Advice’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

To me, Kev's advice was information on the rules.  Let's look at it another way, what about if the player had hit it into an area which is OB, and the ball may or may not be OB.  Would you think it was a breach if Kev said "That might be OB, you might want to hit a provisional"

As with all rules related matters, the burden of proof is with you, so you need to find a decision that impliciltly mentions advising a provisional as being a breach of the rules.

[golf_bhoy]

I didn't think it was a breach of a Rule, just advising someone it's fairly common for balls to be lost in the area his 1st shot came to rest (I've lost a few in the same place), so the provisional ball suggestion was a "pace saver".  It has no material effect on the player's play of the hole or his subsequent score.

We could have searched and not found the ball so he goes back to the tee and plays 3, but that's what his provisional ball would have provided anyway if we hadn't found his 1st ball (which we did).  As it happened we found his ball so he's lying 1, which would have been the case if he hadn't played the provisional ball.

[SkankyShanky]

I agree. The unplayable situation is something different, because it's advising to take a penalty drop instead of having a thrash at it so directly affects the score.

Suggesting playing a provisional is different. He could have found the original ball and the provisional would have not been in play. The only thing it affected was pace of play (in a good way)

[Vince Baby]

I'd also agree that it wasn't "advice", but it would probably be better to tell them as information. Such as, "I think yhat's gone in the shite". The other player can then make their own decision based on the "facts".

[Keve]

I didn't think it was a breach of a Rule, just advising someone it's fairly common for balls to be lost in the area his 1st shot came to rest (I've lost a few in the same place), so the provisional ball suggestion was a "pace saver".  It has no material effect on the player's play of the hole or his subsequent score.

We could have searched and not found the ball so he goes back to the tee and plays 3, but that's what his provisional ball would have provided anyway if we hadn't found his 1st ball (which we did).  As it happened we found his ball so he's lying 1, which would have been the case if he hadn't played the provisional ball.

Doesn't make any difference to the thread but it wasn't his 1st ball that was found it was the provisional.
As Jim said it was more a local knowledge/witnessed situation, he was well below the hole and probably didn't see it go into very heavy rough. His partner had already N/R'd the hole so it was quite important that he posted a score or the team was out. We were already running late with one of our group taking up the coo's tail on the 1st tee, then we looked for ball at the 1st(mine) the twice on the 2nd.