IS IT WITHIN THE RULES ?

[3ott]

We have played a par 3 today that means clearing a big valley, ther is very thick rough on both sides as well. i hit my tee shot and pushed it out to the right towards the thick stuff and so decided to play a provisional. I hit this to within three feet giving me a putt for bogie. i said to my partner that i would declare my first shot as lost and now continue with my provisional. as neither of us could see where my first ball had landed and we both agreed it was in the deepest of rough there didn't seem much point in holding the play up to go looking for it.

when we got near the green i found my first ball on the edge of the fairway, i can only suspect it got a nice kick. i assumed that as i had already declared my ball as being lost i could not then play this first ball.

however my partner was insistant that i should have to play my original ball as it had been found.

still came off with a 4 but i am unclear on what should have happened.

we were playing in a singles strokeplay medal if that amkes any difference.

anyone know?

[JohnC]

Your partner was correct you should have played your original ball. You can't declare a ball 'lost'.

[mattyarse]

If you didn't want to 'risk' finding your first shot as you feared doing so could lead to a big number*, you could have hit a second ball off the tee but not said anything e.g. do NOT declare it a provisional - the second ball then becomes the ball in play (as your third shot) I believe.

*There is probably a moral debate that *could* be had there, but that is not the point of this thread!

[Blofeld]

Given that you declared and hit such a good provisional you could also have chosen not to look for your original ball, walked straight to your provisional and knocked it in the hole. Even if your playing partners chose to look for your first ball, if you got to your provisional and played it (from a position closer to the hole than the original ball was likely to be) before they found your original, then it becomes the ball in play.

Again perhaps one might wish to debate the golfing ethics of doing such a thing but it is within the rules!!!

[MisterS3]

If you're ever not sure, play both balls and get a ruling before signing for you score.

[YOOFALLMAN]

Your partner was correct you should have played your original ball. You can't declare a ball 'lost'.

erm...absolutely Wrong !
You can declare your ball lost at any time.  As the player of it,  you have control over your golf ball.  You could have said to your fellow competitors, I think that ball is a goner, let's get on with it.  I'll play my provisional.  At that point, you have just declared the first ball lost.  Time to go play your provisional.  But, if you give it a half hearted attempt not really caring, they don't know that, so when they find the ball, you now have to deal with that ball.    An opposing player cannot identify the ball as yours, except if he is scoring for you and knows the markings on your ball.  Identifying that it is your ball is up to you.  By simply declaring it lost before a search ever begins, your original ball can be declared lost - after all, in doing so, you have accepted a stroke and distance penalty.   I have played many a medal round when my ball has been hit into deep cabbage or bushes or whatever that was really dense.  I did the same thing you did and made a decision it would be worse to actually find the ball, so  I'm done looking and I'll go play my provisional.  At that moment, I have declared my ball lost- as I am entitled to do within the rules.  So even if someone would have found it out in the open, meaning we didn't look in the right place, too bad.  Other than that, it probably is in your best interest to take your medicine and play on without delay.

[Blofeld]

erm...absolutely Wrong !
You can declare your ball lost at any time. 

No you cannot!!!!

Please do not perpetuate this myth.

Read page 29 of the rule book to understand the definition of a lost ball. You cannot declare it lost. The ball only becomes "lost" when your own physical actions result in the ball being lost as defined in the Rules of Golf Section II - Definitions.

If you believe otherwise then please identify the rule (number and page in the current rule book) which tells you that you can "declare" a ball lost.


Saying "I'm going to play my provisional" (I'm assuming that youve allready put a provisional into play) does not automatically make your first ball lost.

Indeed, you can hit your provisional ball three, four, five, as many times as you want, but it is only when you play a stroke at it froma place close to where you'd expect to find your original ball, that it becomes in play and your original ball is deemed lost.

Now obviously you can choose not to look for your ball, but if your playing partners/opponents choose to look for it and find it before you play your provisional then the original ball is "in play"....and if you have followed the correct procedure on the tee where you have shown your ball to your opponents/playing partners to ensure that you are not playing identical balls then they will themselves be able to identify it.

[JohnC]

erm...absolutely Wrong !
You can declare your ball lost at any time.  As the player of it,  you have control over your golf ball.  You could have said to your fellow competitors, I think that ball is a goner, let's get on with it.  I'll play my provisional.  At that point, you have just declared the first ball lost.  Time to go play your provisional.  But, if you give it a half hearted attempt not really caring, they don't know that, so when they find the ball, you now have to deal with that ball.    An opposing player cannot identify the ball as yours, except if he is scoring for you and knows the markings on your ball.  Identifying that it is your ball is up to you.  By simply declaring it lost before a search ever begins, your original ball can be declared lost - after all, in doing so, you have accepted a stroke and distance penalty.   I have played many a medal round when my ball has been hit into deep cabbage or bushes or whatever that was really dense.  I did the same thing you did and made a decision it would be worse to actually find the ball, so  I'm done looking and I'll go play my provisional.  At that moment, I have declared my ball lost- as I am entitled to do within the rules.  So even if someone would have found it out in the open, meaning we didn't look in the right place, too bad.  Other than that, it probably is in your best interest to take your medicine and play on without delay.

Suggest you go read up on the rules!

[YOOFALLMAN]

No you cannot!!!!

Please do not perpetuate this myth.

Read page 29 of the rule book to understand the definition of a lost ball. You cannot declare it lost. The ball only becomes "lost" when your own physical actions result in the ball being lost as defined in the Rules of Golf Section II - Definitions.

If you believe otherwise then please identify the rule (number and page in the current rule book) which tells you that you can "declare" a ball lost.


Saying "I'm going to play my provisional" (I'm assuming that youve allready put a provisional into play) does not automatically make your first ball lost.

Indeed, you can hit your provisional ball three, four, five, as many times as you want, but it is only when you play a stroke at it froma place close to where you'd expect to find your original ball, that it becomes in play and your original ball is deemed lost.

Now obviously you can choose not to look for your ball, but if your playing partners/opponents choose to look for it and find it before you play your provisional then the original ball is "in play"....and if you have followed the correct procedure on the tee where you have shown your ball to your opponents/playing partners to ensure that you are not playing identical balls then they will themselves be able to identify it.

R & A definitions....now lets see.....( an abridged version ! )
Lost Ball
A ball is deemed “lost” if:

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke
and distance (see Rule 27-la)

...and Rule 27-1a then explains....At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as
nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played
(see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

So lets go back to my original reply...."at any time ".....By simply declaring it lost before a search ever begins, your original ball can be declared lost - after all, in doing so, you have accepted a stroke and distance penalty. To me, and without wishing to be the perpetrator of myths here, that means that if I choose to accept said stroke and distance penalty ( in accordance with Rule 27-1a )  , then I can declare my ball lost can I not.....?

So ...lets reinforce this point......if I decide, through MY ( physical ) actions as I am responsible for MY ball, that I wish , under penalty of stroke and distance, to put another ball into play at ANY TIME....then I can declare MY ball lost ......at any time......and this , I believe was the original poster's intent ......having declared it lost ( i said to my partner that i would declare my first shot as lost and now continue with my provisional   ) and that his provisional was the ball in play...it was his playing partner who , IMO, was incorrect. The player should have proceeded with his provisional ball.
It also begs the question that as the player is in control of his or her ball, if he or she instructs his or her partners NOT to search for a ball which he has declared lost ( as he is entitled to do having accepted the stroke and distance penalty under Rule 27-1a ) then what right do they have to insist that if the ball , having been declared lost and the requisite penalty accepted , to go look for it ? What rule covers the right of a competitor to search for a ball that has been declared lost ??
As an interesting, and extremely relevant aside, Rule 28 covers a "ball Unplayable". The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.He can then under penalty of one stroke play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. So, again , this is not the stuff that myths are made of....there is presumably nothing in the rules to stop a player declaring that his or her ball is unplayable the moment that it has been struck, providing of course that he or she accepts the penalty .....

All that said Blofeld, I'm more than willing, if through your profession a knowledge of the Rules of Golf is an absolute  prerequisite , to bow down to your superior knowledge of same - I dont profess to know or indeed am required to know or be able to quote the rules verbatim......but what I am willing to do is interpret the rules as I see them- something which I am perfectly capable of doing.....and  without apparently perpetuating a myth...

[YOOFALLMAN]

Suggest you go read up on the rules!

and perhaps a few others may benefit by doing likewise .....??

[MisterS3]

Graeme (never know who has which spelling), the OP declared his 2nd tee shot 'Provisional'. That's the key point. You can't have your cake and eat it. If he's played his 2nd tee shot and not declared it provisional, then what you say is correct. But you can't say 'provisional' wait for the outcome, and then decide.

[Vince Baby]

Graeme (never know who has which spelling), the OP declared his 2nd tee shot 'Provisional'. That's the key point. You can't have your cake and eat it. If he's played his 2nd tee shot and not declared it provisional, then what you say is correct. But you can't say 'provisional' wait for the outcome, and then decide.

Beat me to it 

This is a chestnut that turns up every 6 months. If you don't want the first ball found, just hit a second without muttering "provisional" (or shortening thereof). The second ball immediately becomes the ball in play regardless of anyone going to look for it.

You're effectively "declaring" it lost by your actions, but you can't declare it lost in the same sense as you can "declare" a ball unplayable.

[YOOFALLMAN]

VinceBaby and MisterS3.....I agree with both of you....the statment that a replacement ball is a provisional would,on reflection absolutely entitle your playing partners to look for a ball - I guess that answers a question I made in my reply to Blofeld. But....equally, the player can also stand on the tee and choose to say...."phuck it, that ball has gone where Sabre Toothed Tigers still roam ", play a substitute ball and under the appropriate penalty, the substitute ball is the ball in play......and I for one, cannot, for the likes of me, see where in the rules a player is prevented from so doing....at any time !   Sanity and common sense also has to kick in mind you......its not like a second serve at tennis where a rational and sane person would declare a ball lost if he or she just simply didn't like the result.....20 feet away instead of three feet for example...... .....and the imposition of a penalty under the rules is the all important factor here....
Graham

[Stu-Pid]

and perhaps a few others may benefit by doing likewise .....??

Reading the rules is one thing, understanding them is obviously another...

As many have already said, this is one of the most misunderstood rules in golf, and one which often catches playing partners out.  If you choose to play a provisional, then the first ball remains the ball in play unless it isn't found within 5 minutes of searching, or until you play the provisional ball from a point ahead of where the 1st ball is suspected to be.  If you find your provisional and it is in the deep sh*t then you either have to play it, take a drop or go back to the tee, the provisional is no longer a ball in play and so cannot be played.

There is no grey area here, it is black and white.

Now, you can choose to not look for your ball of course, but if it is found, by you or your playing partners, then you must play it.  This also means that you cannot stop your playing partners (or opponent in matchplay) from going to look for it if they so choose.  The only way to stop that would be by playing your provisional (in a point ahead of the original ball) before they have a chance to find it.  However, if this entails playing out of turn, then you cannot do it in matchplay, and it would be a breach of ettiquette in stroke play, and could be possibly deemed to be gaining an advantage by playing out of turn, which is against the rules.

Of course, this all becomes moot should you hit a 2nd ball off the tee without declaring it a provisional, but as that clearly wasn't the case in the OP, it's not applicable to this case.

[YOOFALLMAN]

Reading the rules is one thing, understanding them is obviously another...As many have already said, this is one of the most misunderstood rules in golf, and one which often catches playing partners out.  If you choose to play a provisional, then the first ball remains the ball in play unless it isn't found within 5 minutes of searching, or until you play the provisional ball from a point ahead of where the 1st ball is suspected to be.  If you find your provisional and it is in the deep sh*t then you either have to play it, take a drop or go back to the tee, the provisional is no longer a ball in play and so cannot be played.

There is no grey area here, it is black and white.

Now, you can choose to not look for your ball of course, but if it is found, by you or your playing partners, then you must play it.  This also means that you cannot stop your playing partners (or opponent in matchplay) from going to look for it if they so choose.  The only way to stop that would be by playing your provisional (in a point ahead of the original ball) before they have a chance to find it.  However, if this entails playing out of turn, then you cannot do it in matchplay, and it would be a breach of ettiquette in stroke play, and could be possibly deemed to be gaining an advantage by playing out of turn, which is against the rules.

Of course, this all becomes moot should you hit a 2nd ball off the tee without declaring it a provisional, but as that clearly wasn't the case in the OP, it's not applicable to this case.

So from that, your inference is clearly that you are not understanding my post where I have chosen, quite lucidly I'd have thought, but I may  be wrong, to use both the rule definitions and the rules themselves, to make a point which , according to the R and A , is absolutely true and proper.......
If I may be forgiven for any misunderstanding, it was in not fully appreciating what the original Poster said in his message ......and if I have taken the topic off seemingly at an uneccessary tangent, I offer my unreserved apology......BUT, the vital piece in his post was  the utterance of the word provisional .......my bad, I missed it, but if you have understood my reply, nothing that I have stated regarding the loss of a ball can be countered - either in the rule book definitions or indeed the relevant rules themselves which with respect, both Blofeld and I have taken the time and effort to quote. But then maybe its just me thats Stu-pid.....