IS IT WITHIN THE RULES ?

[golf_bhoy]

Back to the OP ...

Singles strokeplay medal ... is there any other kind?  And if it's a medal you don't have playing partners, you're accompanied by fellow competitors, and one of their duties is to protect the rest of the field against rules infractions.  They were right to tell you to proceed with your original ball IF you declared the other a provisional BEFORE you hit it.  That'snot clear in your post, all you said you "decided to play a provisional".

Yoof, a ball can be deemed lost by actions but it can't be declared lost by any means.  You quote the relevant Rule which uses the word "deemed", then change it to to "declared".  Why?

[Stu-Pid]

So from that, your inference is clearly that you are not understanding my post where I have chosen, quite lucidly I'd have thought, but I may  be wrong, to use both the rule definitions and the rules themselves, to make a point which , according to the R and A , is absolutely true and proper.......
If I may be forgiven for any misunderstanding, it was in not fully appreciating what the original Poster said in his message ......and if I have taken the topic off seemingly at an uneccessary tangent, I offer my unreserved apology......BUT, the vital piece in his post was  the utterance of the word provisional .......my bad, I missed it, but if you have understood my reply, nothing that I have stated regarding the loss of a ball can be countered - either in the rule book definitions or indeed the relevant rules themselves which with respect, both Blofeld and I have taken the time and effort to quote. But then maybe its just me thats Stu-pid..... 

You didn't miss it, you used the word 'provisional' 3 times in your first post and 3 times in your second post!

You also clearly stated that "You could have said to your fellow competitors, I think that ball is a goner, let's get on with it.  I'll play my provisional.  At that point, you have just declared the first ball lost..  That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules, which could cost either you or your playing partners (if you advised them of their options) to be disqualified from a competition.

[jonnyc]

 

[YOOFALLMAN]

You didn't miss it, you used the word 'provisional' 3 times in your first post and 3 times in your second post!

You also clearly stated that "You could have said to your fellow competitors, I think that ball is a goner, let's get on with it.  I'll play my provisional.  At that point, you have just declared the first ball lost..  That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules, which could cost either you or your playing partners (if you advised them of their options) to be disqualified from a competition.

Stu - I do understand - some may find this hard to believe mind you .....the difference between declaring or not declaring a provisional....and when it is or when its not in play.....My point ( and the one most seem keen to refute ) was and still remains that you can declare your ball lost on the course - at any time.....the example provided whilst perhaps not the best illustration of this, does serve a point....as a previous poster has said, often the rules can be used to work for you....."perhaps one might wish to debate the golfing ethics of doing such a thing but it is within the rules!!!" ....but I need someone to show me the rule which says emphatically that I cannot declare my ball as lost - at any time.....! If there is such a rule, then I'm happy to hold my hands up as the village idiot here......

[Longshot]

Stu - I do understand - some may find this hard to believe mind you .....the difference between declaring or not declaring a provisional....and when it is or when its not in play.....My point ( and the one most seem keen to refute ) was and still remains that you can declare your ball lost on the course - at any time.....the example provided whilst perhaps not the best illustration of this, does serve a point....as a previous poster has said, often the rules can be used to work for you....."perhaps one might wish to debate the golfing ethics of doing such a thing but it is within the rules!!!" ....but I need someone to show me the rule which says emphatically that I cannot declare my ball as lost - at any time.....! If there is such a rule, then I'm happy to hold my hands up as the village idiot here......

Have a look here:

http://www.randa.org/rules/rulessub/faq/2833

Can a player verbally declare his ball to be lost?
A player may not render a ball lost solely by declaration It is not what the player says that matters, it is what he does.
A ball can only be considered lost when (a) it is not found or identified as his by the player within 5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or (b) the player has played any stroke with a provisional ball from the place where the original is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place; or (c) the player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1a); or (d) the player has put a ball into play under any of the “known or virtually certain” Rules, e.g. ball that is not found is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3); or (e) the player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

[Stu-Pid]

Stu - I do understand - some may find this hard to believe mind you .....the difference between declaring or not declaring a provisional....and when it is or when its not in play.....My point ( and the one most seem keen to refute ) was and still remains that you can declare your ball lost on the course - at any time.....the example provided whilst perhaps not the best illustration of this, does serve a point....as a previous poster has said, often the rules can be used to work for you....."perhaps one might wish to debate the golfing ethics of doing such a thing but it is within the rules!!!" ....but I need someone to show me the rule which says emphatically that I cannot declare my ball as lost - at any time.....! If there is such a rule, then I'm happy to hold my hands up as the village idiot here......

The important distinction that you are missing is the fact that you cannot declare your ball lost.  A ball is deemed to be lost when one of two things happens; not finding it after searching for 5 minutes, or playing a provisional ball from a point closer to the hole than the original ball is thought to be.  You can also declare a ball unplayable from the tee by hitting another shot without declaring it a provisional, but your first ball is not deemed to be lost (as it could be in clear sight), it is just no longer the ball in play.

The important thing to understand is that nothing that you say can make a ball lost, only actions that you take can cause a ball to be deemed lost.  This becomes very important in matchplay, as it is quite possible that in the OP, the opponent would prefer the player to find their original ball, and so would be within their rights to search for it.  The player could not simply 'declare' it lost at that stage, if it was found, it would be the ball in play.

[YOOFALLMAN]

Have a look here:

http://www.randa.org/rules/rulessub/faq/2833

Can a player verbally declare his ball to be lost?
A player may not render a ball lost solely by declaration It is not what the player says that matters, it is what he does.
A ball can only be considered lost when (a) it is not found or identified as his by the player within 5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or (b) the player has played any stroke with a provisional ball from the place where the original is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place; or (c) the player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1a); or (d) the player has put a ball into play under any of the “known or virtually certain” Rules, e.g. ball that is not found is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3); or (e) the player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

Superb......exactly what I needed to hear ( be shown ) ......just goes to show that we dont know everything about everything.....some of us even know owt about nowt  .....seriously, many thanks for that .....interesting that it doesn't appear in the Rules themselves but the decisons on the interpretation of the Rules ...am I right in saying that ?  Also see that there is a section in one of the Appendices on Doping......maybe I should read that ....

[MisterS3]

Superb......exactly what I needed to hear ( be shown ) ......just goes to show that we dont know everything about everything.....some of us even know owt about nowt  .....seriously, many thanks for that .....interesting that it doesn't appear in the Rules themselves but the decisons on the interpretation of the Rules ...am I right in saying that ?  Also see that there is a section in one of the Appendices on Doping......maybe I should read that ....

Graham to be fair to you, the reason that most of us know this rule so well is from online golf forums.

I'm sure this question will come up again in future and you can shake your head along with the collective now

[YOOFALLMAN]

Graham to be fair to you, the reason that most of us know this rule so well is from online golf forums.

I'm sure this question will come up again in future and you can shake your head along with the collective now

Thanks Buddy....humbling ....and enlightening indeed....... ...Erm....can I play a provisional ?   

[Longshot]

Superb......exactly what I needed to hear ( be shown ) ......just goes to show that we dont know everything about everything.....some of us even know owt about nowt  .....seriously, many thanks for that .....interesting that it doesn't appear in the Rules themselves but the decisons on the interpretation of the Rules ...am I right in saying that ?  Also see that there is a section in one of the Appendices on Doping......maybe I should read that ....

Just to clarify, I'm no rules expert, although as Ian points out in the preceding post, I've seen this one discussed time and again on forums.

I simply Googled "declaring a ball lost" and it was about the fifth link 

[ecclesrec]

Another reason why the rules of golf SHOULD be simplified. 

[3ott]

thanks guys,

looks like it was my error then and my partner was right at least i'll know for next time.

[golf_bhoy]

.....interesting that it doesn't appear in the Rules themselves but the decisons on the interpretation of the Rules ...am I right in saying that ?

The Rules book tells you "what to do", not "what not to do".  So if you understand what you're supposed to do, everything else is not allowed by default.  This scenario is in the Decisions book because someone, somewhere, asked for clarification of the same scenario in the OP.

Expanding the Rule to include "what not to do" isn't going to make the Rules simpler.  That's where the Decisions book comes in, to provide fuller explanations of common "problems" and, more ofen that not, answer specific points as raised by the R&As customers (that's me and you). 

The Decisions book is massively thick, which is why it's printed seperately and sold for £14.95 a copy.  Ask your M&H committee to see your club's copy if you ever need it.

You certainly wouldn't want to carry one around in your golf bag, and the Rule book in its current form covers 99.999% of situations you will come across on the course.  Mind you, that's a small %age in comparison to the number of active golfers who've never read a Rules book, ever, IMO.