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Play => Rules & Regulations => Topic started by: 3puttwizard on Jul 27, 2020, 23:07:25

Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jul 27, 2020, 23:07:25
Christ I’m confused already  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jul 27, 2020, 23:58:00
Christ I’m confused already  :rolleyes:

you wait....we haven't even started yet!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jul 28, 2020, 09:52:25
Nick

Am I right in thinking that as long as you know your Handicap Index it’s more than likely that your Course Handicap will be available from a table - or if using an app calculated by it - depending on the tee you’re playing from.
Any adjustment for the format would then be similar to what we do now - eg 90% for better ball difference

Correct. People who supposedly know more than I do keep talking about a mobile app but so far there is no sign of any development of one so I'll wait for it to be delivered by a unicorn.

The tables should be published by your club and displayed in prominent places...noticeboard, in a window (facing outwards - so folks can see it when the club house is shut) or perhaps by the first tee (bespoke signage can be purchased from Eagle Golf who pretty much print every golf club in the lands scorecards!!).

TBH the maths for converting Handicap Index to Course Handicap isn't complex....CH = HI/113*Slope Rating of the Course You are playing....but its not something you could do easily in the head, hence the provision of tables. At clubs who have Player Entry Terminals where you register for your round in advance it is expected that the underlying system will calculate your Course and Playing handicaps for you.

There are changes to the Handicap Allowances for various formats in the new system.

But we are getting ahead of ourselves.  :chuckle: More on course and playing handicaps will follow in the future.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jul 28, 2020, 10:39:20
you wait....we haven't even started yet!!!

When you play a round of golf your Handicap Index is converted into a Course Handicap and then into a Playing Handicap depending upon the format of golf (Singles Strokeplay, Singles Matchplay, 4BBB etc etc) you are about to play.


Seriously how confusing is that?

So if you play the same course every week in a medal/stableford then all 3 should be same number?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Jul 28, 2020, 10:46:02
No - you need to use the slope adjustment to calculate your playing handicap

Scottish Golf differ from England at the moment - we have no exceptional scoring adjustment .

The Scottish Golf App - VMS - looks like it has the functionality to show your playing handicap when you check in for a competition. It knows your Index and knows which tees and slope adjustment.

IIRC in US most scorecards has a table on them - or maybe it was In the Strokesavers?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jul 28, 2020, 10:57:36
When you play a round of golf your Handicap Index is converted into a Course Handicap and then into a Playing Handicap depending upon the format of golf (Singles Strokeplay, Singles Matchplay, 4BBB etc etc) you are about to play.


Seriously how confusing is that?

So if you play the same course every week in a medal/stableford then all 3 should be same number?

No. Your Handicap Index is based on a course that is considered to be of "standard relative difficulty" (i.e. a course with a slope rating of 113)...it is not reflective of your ability round your home course.

You Course Handicap will see your Handicap Index adjusted based on the Slope Rating of the Course you are about to play. Your Playing Handicap will depend on the format of golf you are playing.

Were getting ahead of ourselves but here is an example...

I have a Handicap Index of 13.4 and I am about to play from a set of tees that has a Slope Rating of 124.

My Course Handicap is therefore 13.4/113*124 = 14.7  which gives a Course Handicap of 15.

I decide to play an individual singles strokeplay event (medal, stableford, bogey). The handicap allowance for singles strokeplay events will be 95%....15*0.95 = 14.3....so my playing handicap is going to be 14.

Does that help?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jul 28, 2020, 11:06:13
Handicap 11 Index , Slope is 120 off the whites

11/113*120 = 11.68 = 11.7

12*0.95=11.4

Seems a hell a of crazy way to get back to a number. So in theory my exact handicap allowance that day has gone up due to the Slope/Tees I've played off?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Jul 28, 2020, 11:14:53
So we are going form a very straight forward system (CONGU) to a crappy and very complicated system. :sarcastic:

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Jul 28, 2020, 11:16:56
half of our members can't even fill out a card properly, so I don't fancy their chances of correctly determining what handicap to use
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jul 28, 2020, 11:26:46
half of our members can't even fill out a card properly, so I don't fancy their chances of correctly determining what handicap to use

In the handicap section on the card, just put a question mark  :lol:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jul 28, 2020, 11:27:59
Handicap 11 Index , Slope is 120 off the whites

11/113*120 = 11.68 = 11.7

12*0.95=11.4

Seems a hell a of crazy way to get back to a number. So in theory my exact handicap allowance that day has gone up due to the Slope/Tees I've played off?

Yes....because your Handicap Index is based around a course with a slope rating of 113.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jul 28, 2020, 11:29:25
No - you need to use the slope adjustment to calculate your playing handicap

Scottish Golf differ from England at the moment - we have no exceptional scoring adjustment .

The Scottish Golf App - VMS - looks like it has the functionality to show your playing handicap when you check in for a competition. It knows your Index and knows which tees and slope adjustment.

IIRC in US most scorecards has a table on them - or maybe it was In the Strokesavers?

No DiS. Slope is used to calculate your COURSE Handicap, not your Playing Handicap.

The course handicap lookup table will either be displayed on a noticeboard, on the scorecard/strokesaver or on signage close to the first tee. Here is a practical example (forgive the German...its from the Nobilis course in Turkey which is a German owned club)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jul 28, 2020, 11:31:28
So basically anyone playing at a high slope rated course could see their handicap increase during the switchover?

Maybe 130+ slope would give them 0.5 more? ( assuming medals off whites for example)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jul 28, 2020, 12:03:50
So basically anyone playing at a high slope rated course could see their handicap increase during the switchover?

Maybe 130+ slope would give them 0.5 more? ( assuming medals off whites for example)

The opposite is more likely.

If I'm regularly shooting say 10 over SSS and SSS is 70 this would give me a handicap of 10. Now lets assume that under the WHS the Course Rating happens to be the same as the SSS (its usually pretty close).

So...my handicap index would be calculated as 10/130*113 = 8.7

When you go and play in a club comp the calculation is reversed...your course handicap is 8.7/113*130 = 10.0

Because the Handicap Index represents your ability round a standard course, players who make regular score returns around a course with a higher slope will see a lower handicap index, those playing a course with a slope lower than 113 should see their scores adjusted updwards.

It is this slope rating element that will allow players to go away and play at other courses and play off a handicap that is reflective of the relative difficulty of that course.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Jul 28, 2020, 12:18:04
Another way of putting that is my clubs

Under SSS the following applies:

INVERURIE - par 69 - SSS 68 so in effect I need 37 points in a Stableford to play to par - or another way of looking at it is I play off 11 (handicap is 12) to get back to par

Moray- par 71 - SSS73 - so I need 34 points here for ‘par’ - or I’m effectively playing if 14

So much the same happens with course index and slope adjustment.

Nick - if this is garbage then please delete!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 02, 2020, 16:06:33
Is it true that there will be no more buffer zones?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 02, 2020, 16:28:27
Yes and no handicap categories

So no cuts based on CSS or 0.1s

Just the recalculated average of the best 8 if your last 20 scores (converted back to your Handicap index)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 02, 2020, 17:24:11
The portal that will allow players to look up their handicaps and playing records on line will go live for players to access on 19th October.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 04, 2020, 10:34:15
The portal that will allow players to look up their handicaps and playing records on line will go live for players to access on 19th October.

 :thumbup1: will this be on the England golf site?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 04, 2020, 10:57:17
:thumbup1: will this be on the England golf site?

No...its is a separate site that is being developed....though there may be a link to the site from the EG web pages.

However....I learned yesterday that there is at least one, possibly more Handicap Software providers who wont be able to upload player data to the new site until the WHS system actually goes live on the 2nd November...there have been various technical issues that are preventing them from doing this and already there is something of a blame game starting between the software providers and England Golf.

So...depending on who your provider is, on the 19th....there might not be any data for you to see....the idea was that software providers would automatically upload certain data to the portal....it may well be that Handicap Committees have to enter the data manually for all their members!!!

I'll be able to tell you more on the 12th which is when I (as an administrator for my club) get full access.

England Golfs timeline is...

5th October....Handicap Software systems upload player data (email addresses and DoB's) to the WHS platform
12th October... Adminstrators get access to the system to check existing player data
19th October...Players get access and will be able to see there proposed Handicap Index
2nd November....go live

Like i said....the 5th is in doubt for certain providers and seemingly according to EG communications, after this date the system will only be able to be updated manually....lets hope this (like other things the authorities have said) is not correct!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 13, 2020, 15:01:28
The other thread got me thinking about reductions

Say you have 20 rounds, get a handicap based on the best 8 etc.

If you shoot a good score under handicap the same as your current 20th round score. You don’t get cut?

Basically you need a good run of scores to knock the crap ones out of the last 20? If that’s the case then If you aren’t consistently shooting good scores you won’t get a reduction?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 13, 2020, 16:00:53
The other thread got me thinking about reductions

Say you have 20 rounds, get a handicap based on the best 8 etc.

If you shoot a good score under handicap the same as your current 20th round score. You don’t get cut?

Basically you need a good run of scores to knock the crap ones out of the last 20? If that’s the case then If you aren’t consistently shooting good scores you won’t get a reduction?

Pretty much spot on Robin. Any score you shoot has got to be better than your 8th best score in order to get a cut.

There may even be cases where you shoot what you would traditionally consider to be "better than handicap" but if your 20th oldest score was a REALLY good one and your new score, whilst being one of the best 8 isnt as good as that 20th score....your index will actually go up.

It works the other way round mind in that you could shoot a score that is poor (over handicap if you like) but is better than the 20th score (and that 20th score was one of your best 8) where your handicap might come down.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 13, 2020, 16:10:56
Pretty much spot on Robin. Any score you shoot has got to be better than your 8th best score in order to get a cut.

There may even be cases where you shoot what you would traditionally consider to be "better than handicap" but if your 20th oldest score was a REALLY good one and your new score, whilst being one of the best 8 isnt as good as that 20th score....your index will actually go up.

It works the other way round mind in that you could shoot a score that is poor (over handicap if you like) but is better than the 20th score (and that 20th score was one of your best 8) where your handicap might come down.

Well that's completely stupid, and i am sure people are going to abuse the system to get an inflated handicap (nothing new there)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 13, 2020, 16:16:18
Which leads onto the fact that someone could win a competition and their  handicap could go up?!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 13, 2020, 16:25:22
Well that's completely stupid, and i am sure people are going to abuse the system to get an inflated handicap (nothing new there)

They will have to work bloody hard to get an inflated handicap as they will need to put in plenty of scores before they start wiping out their good ones.

Additionally, there is something called a soft cap and a hard cap in the system. These caps make a note of the lowest handicap index a player has held in the last 12 months...

the soft cap is triggered when a players index reaches 3 shots higher than the "low handicap index" and causes any further increases to be limited to 50% of what they normally would be.

The hard cap prevents a players handicap index from rising more than 5 shots higher than "the low handicap index".
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 13, 2020, 16:26:31
Which leads onto the fact that someone could win a competition and their  handicap could go up?!

Theoretically yes.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 13, 2020, 16:27:44
I've just seen that my admin access to the WHS has now been livened up.

My index is 11.2 (my current CONGU handicap is 11.9)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 13, 2020, 16:31:41
seemingly I can look up anyones proposed index!!!!

Don't all rush at once....you should get your own access next week!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Cols_Ears on Oct 13, 2020, 16:59:48
seemingly I can look up anyones proposed index!!!!

Don't all rush at once....you should get your own access next week!!!
Go on then Nick - CDH 1015121636
I'm guessing somewhere in the region of 4.2-4.5 based on what you've said previously, assuming my Scottish HCap hasn't been used as well.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 13, 2020, 17:08:57
Go on then Nick - CDH 1015121636
I'm guessing somewhere in the region of 4.2-4.5 based on what you've said previously, assuming my Scottish HCap hasn't been used as well.

4.4
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 13, 2020, 17:18:56
just for a bit of fun I took the 39 scores the WHS has in my record and created a spreadsheet showing the track of my WHS Index (blue line) and my CONGU handicap (orange).

As you can see...early doors there was some initial volatility in the WHS but generally the lines tracked  pretty well. Although my general trend has been upwards over the last two years, when my scoring got really bad during the middle and end of 2019 and early 2020 the WHS reacted far more quickly and at its peak hit 14 which would have meant me actually playing off 15 in comps.

Since I've returned to a bit of form the WHS has equally reacted more quickly and now gives me an index lower than my CONGU handicap.

This "faster reaction" will be a positive of the new system, especially when new improving players come to the game.

Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Cols_Ears on Oct 13, 2020, 17:29:18
4.4
Thanks Nick. Assume that is just the scores at Tidworth then?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 13, 2020, 17:49:12
I don't know whether to laugh or cry  :lol: :suicide:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Stanster on Oct 13, 2020, 19:08:19
I don't think I've had 20 rounds in the past 2 years  :cry:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: danielsawbridge on Oct 13, 2020, 19:47:14
I ve only had 1 round this year, and that was my first one in 10 months
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 00:16:34
Thanks Nick. Assume that is just the scores at Tidworth then?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yep...all 7 scores at Tidworth.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 14, 2020, 08:23:13
Nick - can you access Scotland?

I’ll have had 20 rounds in the past 12 weeks or so - mainly poor

4000413768

Thanks
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 14, 2020, 08:45:32
Nick

CDH ID : 1005793727
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: srp973 on Oct 14, 2020, 09:18:54
Nick

If you don't mind
CDH is 1006766694

Ta
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 14, 2020, 09:31:27
Nick - can you access Scotland?

I’ll have had 20 rounds in the past 12 weeks or so - mainly poor

4000413768

Thanks

20 in 12! WTF!!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 14, 2020, 10:16:28
20 in 12! WTF!!!!

Twice a week minimum qualifiers. Sometimes three
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 11:46:50
Nick - can you access Scotland?

I’ll have had 20 rounds in the past 12 weeks or so - mainly poor

4000413768

Thanks

Sorry no....this is England Golfs WHS platform. I have no access to Scottish data.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 11:48:35
Nick

CDH ID : 1005793727

7.9 Ollie  :woot: :woot: :woot:

Some good solid scoring in your record I can see there.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 11:49:33
Nick

If you don't mind
CDH is 1006766694

Ta

9.1 Simon
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 14, 2020, 12:02:05
7.9 Ollie  :woot: :woot: :woot:

Some good solid scoring in your record I can see there.

Thanks Nick
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: danielsawbridge on Oct 14, 2020, 12:33:52
1012018151

Can you have a look and see I show up Nick
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 12:55:00
1012018151

Can you have a look and see I show up Nick

11.4 Dan

Only 11 scores in your record so its taking an average of the best 3 which appear to be your two latest rounds at Nuneaton back in 2019 along with another Nuneaton round from July 2018.

The slope rating at Nuneaton (143) is certainly having a big effect on your calculated differentials, which is why your index is very low considering your best 3 scores were 13,15 and 16 over the Course Rating.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 14, 2020, 13:13:01
11.4 Dan

Only 11 scores in your record so its taking an average of the best 3 which appear to be your two latest rounds at Nuneaton back in 2019 along with another Nuneaton round from July 2018.

The slope rating at Nuneaton (143) is certainly having a big effect on your calculated differentials, which is why your index is very low considering your best 3 scores were 13,15 and 16 over the Course Rating.

ooooh a respectable handicap index :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 13:31:57
ooooh a respectable handicap index :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

playing off 14 at Nuneaton with that Index.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 14, 2020, 13:34:50
playing off 14 at Nuneaton with that Index.

 no change then :bandit: :bandit: :bandit: :bandit:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 15:07:19
no change then :bandit: :bandit: :bandit: :bandit:

If its any consolation, if he came to visit you to Fulford he would play off 12.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Stanster on Oct 14, 2020, 16:19:00
1009664611,

Cheers  :hi:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 17:06:30
1009664611,

Cheers  :hi:

16.5 Simon
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Stanster on Oct 14, 2020, 17:08:22
16.5 Simon

Thats the key to lower my handicap then, dont play  :lol:

Whats the course slope at Canterbury ?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: david92 on Oct 14, 2020, 17:13:38
coming late to this thread ...CDH is 1002580787...?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 17:15:14
Thats the key to lower my handicap then, dont play  :lol:

Whats the course slope at Canterbury ?

mmm...that's unusual...both your white and yellow tees are rated at 134
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 17:15:48
coming late to this thread ...CDH is 1002580787...?

4.4 David
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: david92 on Oct 14, 2020, 17:16:53
4.4 David

OMG!!....thats painfully low
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: david92 on Oct 14, 2020, 17:19:27
when does this go live?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 17:23:11
OMG!!....thats painfully low

Well the 72 you shot last October doesn't help you much as that gave you a differential of -1.6 for that round dragging your average down....but don't worry...that one will drop off your record in 6 rounds time and then the following round your third best score will drop off your record!!!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: david92 on Oct 14, 2020, 17:26:56
could you check 1000839977 for a mate of mine?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 17:29:25
when does this go live?

Well....apparently individual golfers will be given access to the system next week according to the most recent EG timings. Currently only club handicap admins and nominated committee members have access to the system.

They've very kindly given us less than a week to identify and resolve all the issues with the allocated handicaps before giving the rank and file access, at which point my handicap secretary and I will no doubt drown under a deluge of questions.

We've got 25% of our membership not been allocated a Handicap Index....a lot of them are players who don't have 3 scores submitted since Jan 2018 but there are are sizeable bunch who have joined during the summer and put their three cards in for initial handicap, but haven't played 3 qualifying comps yet. The WHS has disregarded the 3 initial cards as part of their calculations and is waiting for them to submit three cards before allocating an index. That's just plain wrong and I hope they fix it.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 14, 2020, 17:30:51
could you check 1000839977 for a mate of mine?

He is 5.6
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: david92 on Oct 14, 2020, 17:32:03
cheers for that...he is a good golfer and I was expecting a lower hcp
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: david92 on Oct 14, 2020, 17:38:23
he is not happy was expecting 4.25 :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: freded on Oct 14, 2020, 17:43:55
Nick

CDH 1006758599

Thanks.  Just want to confirm it’s 0.6
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Stanster on Oct 14, 2020, 18:09:02
mmm...that's unusual...both your white and yellow tees are rated at 134

TBH not a lot of difference between them, what does 134 mean, is that high or low in the scheme of things
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: danielsawbridge on Oct 14, 2020, 18:38:24
no change then :bandit: :bandit: :bandit: :bandit:

See I told you I was getting shots off you
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: callyman on Oct 14, 2020, 19:07:51
 Nick
Would you be so kind please, it’s taken me 30 years nearly to get to single figures and by my calculations I think I may be 10 😢 1008848411
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 15, 2020, 00:16:42
TBH not a lot of difference between them, what does 134 mean, is that high or low in the scheme of things

The slope rating is a measure of relative difficulty that the course poses for a 20 handicapper compared to a scratch golfer.

The higher the slope (and slopes range from 55 to 155, though in practice most seem to be around the 124 mark) the harder it is for a 20 handicapper compared to a scratch golfer.

The absolute difficulty of a golf course is measured by the Course Rating which effectively is the equivalent of the old SSS.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 15, 2020, 00:17:40
Nick
Would you be so kind please, it’s taken me 30 years nearly to get to single figures and by my calculations I think I may be 10 😢 1008848411

9.5 is the index that the WHS puts you at.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: srp973 on Oct 15, 2020, 08:54:35
9.1 Simon

Cheers Nick - no real change then for me........
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Cols_Ears on Oct 15, 2020, 08:54:54
OMG!!....thats painfully low
Quick lets get that game in David - we're both off the same H'Cap and can play it off scratch!

I wouldn't worry too much though, it's not as bad as it first sounds -  I'm sure that the Slope Index must be pretty high at WH so you'll be getting at least 5 if not 6 as a course handicap.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sharkygolf on Oct 15, 2020, 11:30:28
Nick/all,

Is there site that lists all the slope ratings etc?

If it’s not a pain, could you check cdh 1003640464  for me also.... made a rod for your own back here  :thumbup:

Pk
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 15, 2020, 11:53:29
http://ncrdb.usga.org/ (http://ncrdb.usga.org/)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: srp973 on Oct 15, 2020, 13:47:55
Just checked home club........very strange.

Only Red tees shown - nothing for whites or yellows.

Maybe we'll be playing in skirts then from November  :sarcastic:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Tonypate on Oct 15, 2020, 14:08:32
Just checked home club........very strange.

Only Red tees shown - nothing for whites or yellows.

Maybe we'll be playing in skirts then from November  :sarcastic:

I hope you bring trousers for Woodhall Spa!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: callyman on Oct 15, 2020, 14:57:32
9.5 is the index that the WHS puts you at.

Thanks Nick, I'm off to sulk in the corner
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 15, 2020, 17:23:37
Nick

Presumably once the system is up and running clubs will be able to check any players handicap index?

Otherwise there could be some skulduggery with playing opens in other countries?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 15, 2020, 19:08:37
  Skuldduggery. :omg: 
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 15, 2020, 22:00:13
Nick

Presumably once the system is up and running clubs will be able to check any players handicap index?

Otherwise there could be some skulduggery with playing opens in other countries?

Ummm...as I understand it the system isnt going to be errr...quite universal from day 1  :chuckle:

Ultimately all regions systems will talk to each other (I understand ) but this wont happen from day one. In fact....I'd be surprised if it happens in Year1  :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 16, 2020, 16:46:03
Folks....

bear in mind that all the Handicap Indexes I've provided might be subject to change. The WHS extracted its data from the CDH at the end of September and will not be updated further until 1st November.

If you've been playing in club comps through October these scores wont become part of your record until Nov 1st and will only then have an effect on your handicap index.

Nick
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: callyman on Oct 16, 2020, 18:20:40
Thanks Nick makes sense, pressure is on for tomorrow’s medal now 😥
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 16, 2020, 18:48:29
Thanks Nick makes sense, pressure is on for tomorrow’s medal now 😥

good luck
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 16, 2020, 19:52:35
Our course rating tables got put up close the the first tee yesterday. This is what you will use to determine your course handicap depending on what tees you plan to play from.

Simple lookup table, choose your tees, find your handicap index (or the range that it sits in), and look across to the Course Handicap column.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Oct 16, 2020, 23:22:24
Our course rating tables got put up close the the first tee yesterday. This is what you will use to determine your course handicap depending on what tees you plan to play from.

Simple lookup table, choose your tees, find your handicap index (or the range that it sits in), and look across to the Course Handicap column.

Aye.....it’s a change for the better.......nice, simple and straightforward........ :suicide:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 17, 2020, 08:53:44
Aye.....it’s a change for the better.......nice, simple and straightforward........ :suicide:

...well  did miss out the bit where you then take 95% of your course handicap to figure out how many shots you actually get in a singles strokeplay event.  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Oct 17, 2020, 13:33:27
...well  did miss out the bit where you then take 95% of your course handicap to figure out how many shots you actually get in a singles strokeplay event.  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

It’s a crazy one Nick.....I guess that like anything that changes - especially when something has been familiar - we take a while to adjust and in some cases are apt to resist change but , if I’m interpreting this correctly, if a player tees it up on 7 different courses in the space of a week , you might have 7 different handicaps ?  :huh: How the feck can that be equitable ?  :sad: Or, in another extreme case, with the  greatest respect , and this is me interpreting what’s been said, how a 5 or 6 handicapper can have a handicap judged on a couple of scores and be allocated  scratch or one......WTF  :mad: That’s neither fair on the player or on the scratch golfer who has gone before......  :eyebrow: Absolute nonsense and well nigh impossible under the current arrangements  :no: That to me suggests it is not a handicapping system that improves upon what it’s replacing ....not in a million years.... :thumbdown:






Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 17, 2020, 13:46:44
Clearly, if you want to understand the system you have a lot of homework to do.  There's no point in making sweeping judgments on something you don't understand.

You have a Handicap Index which shows the number of strokes you need on a standard course to put you on a level with a scratch player.  You take it to the course you are going to play and look a up a chart or an app to find the number of strokes you need on that particular course to put you on a level with a scratch player.  That's the only part of the process that differs from what you do now.

 The reason is that the gap between a handicapper and the scratch player increases the more relatively difficult a course.  If I played my home course today I'd get 18 strokes and if played Carnoustie tomorrow I'd get 18.   Next month my handicap index will be around 16.5 and  will get 18 strokes  on my home course and 21 on Carnoustie. 

So yes you might go to 7 different courses in a week and get a different number of strokes (your Course Handicap) on each of them although your Handicap Index hasn't changed.  But that's because you are going to encounter different degrees of difficulty on them and this system responds to that by giving you a bespoke Course Handicap. 
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Oct 17, 2020, 15:07:41
Clearly, if you want to understand the system you have a lot of homework to do.  There's no point in making sweeping judgments on something you don't understand.

You have a Handicap Index which shows the number of strokes you need on a standard course to put you on a level with a scratch player.  You take it to the course you are going to play and look a up a chart or an app to find the number of strokes you need on that particular course to put you on a level with a scratch player.  That's the only part of the process that differs from what you do now.

 The reason is that the gap between a handicapper and the scratch player increases the more relatively difficult a course.  If I played my home course today I'd get 18 strokes and if played Carnoustie tomorrow I'd get 18.   Next month my handicap index will be around 16.5 and  will get 18 strokes  on my home course and 21 on Carnoustie. 

So yes you might go to 7 different courses in a week and get a different number of strokes (your Course Handicap) on each of them although your Handicap Index hasn't changed.  But that's because you are going to encounter different degrees of difficulty on them and this system responds to that by giving you a bespoke Course Handicap.

I’m trying to see exactly  where or what It is I’ve said that is so fundamentally incorrect that I’m in need of being educated because you  seem to so vehemently disagree with me.......perhaps it’s that I dared to suggest the  new system isn’t , in my opinion, equitable ?
So.....to recap......in my “sweeping statement” as you’ve called it.....next month, when or if a player chooses to play seven different courses on seven  different days......and let’s add in the seven different degrees of difficulty.....then, am I right in saying that he ( or she )  will receive seven different “bespoke  course handicaps ? “  :blink: ...call it strokes differential from a scratch player or whatever you want but when you tally up the number of strokes taken on any particular day you’ve still to deduct a number at the  end.....and if you call that a handicap  ,  a bespoke course handicap or the number of strokes you need on a “standard“ course ( whatever that may be ? ) to put you on a level with a scratch player.....the fact of the  matter is ....that the “integer” will  be not your “handicap index” but will nevertheless be a number which will indeed be different each, and if you play different courses, every  time you play. How does that differ materially from my previous “sweeping statement ?”
Now I’ve already stated, somewhat sardonically, that I feel  the new system unduly complicates the relatively straightforward incumbent process......I have to say, your explanation, if indeed that was needed or actually has added anything more to my existing level of understanding ,  to me, does nothing to change my view.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 17, 2020, 15:45:40
Perhaps I sounded a bit impatient, but that's because I get a bit impatient at rushes to judgement without actually understanding what's being judged.

Getting the number of strokes needed for a particular course will be more equitable than what we have now.  It 's probably an exaggeration to think of getting a different number of strokes for each of 7 courses, but possible.   The lower your handicap the less the variation in course handicaps will be if any and if you are a scratch player your course handicap will always zero wherever you play. 

I'm not even trying to change your view.  The only way that could happen is if you take the time to learn something about how the system works and what its outcomes are.  That doesn't mean digging deeply in to difficult maths.  You can use your WHS handicap and understand what it does for you without having to do complicated calculations.

There is only one difference between the practical process of using your WHS handicap and what we are used to - we now have to look up a chart or an app to get our course handicap - the number of strokes you get for the course you are going to play.   That's all.

The Players' Reference Guide to the World Handicap System is a good start point to learning.  It can be downloaded here https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/ (https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/)



Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 17, 2020, 16:15:53
So it’s 95% allowance for singles medal and stableford

What other format/allowances are there?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 17, 2020, 17:33:40
Graham - to put it quite simply the difference between par and SSS/CSS is adjusted before you play rather than after. The slope allows for the increased difficulty of a course for a handicap player versus a scratch golfer.

I could play 7 different courses with 7 different SSS - say from 67 to 74 - now and would be able to work out how many strokes to hit buffer on all of them- the course handicap adjustment from handicap index is done for me by the chart or app

Simples!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 18, 2020, 10:31:00
So it’s 95% allowance for singles medal and stableford

What other format/allowances are there?

Pretty much unchanged for most of the common formats...

Matchplay: Full difference between the two players course handicaps
4BBB Matchplay: 90% of the difference from the lowest handicap.
4BBB Stableford: (i.e. play as a pair and its the best score from the two players) each player gets 85%
Foursomes: 50% of combined handicap
Greensomes: 60% Low Handicap + 40% High Handicap

The biggest difference is that they now list allowances for scrambles:
2 ball scramble: 35% of the low handicapper plus 15% of the high handicapper
4 ball scramble: 25%/20%/15%/10% from low to high handicapper

(curiously they don't list a 3 ball scramble and one of the biggest issues is trying to equate scramble handicaps when a player drops out of a 4 man team!!)

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 19, 2020, 09:51:02
so where can we look for this ourselves now?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 19, 2020, 10:20:02
so where can we look for this ourselves now?

You cant until you recieve communication telling you how to access your account.

Unfortunately no body knows how this communication is going to be made. Whether England Golf will contact all players it has registered for "my account" on the old EG website, or whether clubs are going to be told to send an email. Or whether the WHS system will automatically email everyone telling them that it is now open.

Its an absolute mess.

Wouldnt surprise me if nothing went out until later in the week....they were a day late last week in giving club admins access.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 19, 2020, 12:17:27
oh ok,

thanks nick
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Oct 19, 2020, 12:19:30
What happens post 2 Nov for someone who has <20 scores like myself

I believe the system is showing 10 cards (thanks Nick for looking) - which in itself is weird as I have 17 in he date range based on my own records

So with 10 cards I get average of best 3 which remains the case when I submit 1 more to make 11 ... when I submit 1 more to make 12 I assume it goes to average of 4?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 19, 2020, 12:27:19
so where can we look for this ourselves now?

https://www.randa.org/en/rules-of-handicapping/2019/rules/appendices/appendix-c (https://www.randa.org/en/rules-of-handicapping/2019/rules/appendices/appendix-c)

This gives all the allowances for different formats
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 19, 2020, 12:45:15
What happens post 2 Nov for someone who has <20 scores like myself

I believe the system is showing 10 cards (thanks Nick for looking) - which in itself is weird as I have 17 in he date range based on my own records

So with 10 cards I get average of best 3 which remains the case when I submit 1 more to make 11 ... when I submit 1 more to make 12 I assume it goes to average of 4?

Yep.

12-14 you take the average of the lowest 4
15 or 16 its the lowest 5
17 or 18 the lowest 6
19 the lowest 7
and then the 20th is the lowest 8
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Oct 19, 2020, 13:03:15
What we need is a "world beating app" to maybe "track and Trace" our handicaps  :p
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: ScottyGilbert on Oct 19, 2020, 13:15:19
Graham - to put it quite simply the difference between par and SSS/CSS is adjusted before you play rather than after. The slope allows for the increased difficulty of a course for a handicap player versus a scratch golfer.

I've just quoted this bit, as I completely get that the SSS is calculated before you start - that makes sense to me as it's gauging the course difficulty based on the individuals ability vs a scratch player.

But what about CSS? How are weather or course conditions adjusted for - or has that gone now?

Again, similar to SSS where scratch players may have the ability to deal with high winds for example, but could still expect some 'sympathy' in the form of CSS above SSS.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 19, 2020, 13:40:49

But what about CSS? How are weather or course conditions adjusted for - or has that gone now?


There is a new thing called "Playing Conditions Calculation"...effectively it replaces CSS but is different, as it will be based on ALL scores from the day and will be applied to ALL scores on the day....so its not just for competitions.

Basically after all the submitted scores for a day (competition and social) are uploaded to the WHS at midnight, the WHS systems will analyse the scoring patterns and determine statistically the %age of players who scored better/worse than their expected score for their handicap. Depending on the results of this analysis there will be an adjustment to the Playing Conditions Calculation.

PCC will only be calculated once for any given day. If there are scores submitted the following day (e.g on a Monday for a Sunday) then those scores wont have any effect on the PCC but the PCC that was calculated will be applied to those scores.

The PCC adjustments can range from -1.0 to +3.0 shots.

This has an impact at clubs where typically competition cards are not processed by the committee until the following day as there would NEVER be any calculated PCC adjustment.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 19, 2020, 21:24:36
Is PDC per course, or per club? Obviously thinking about our artisan club which is separate from the main club, but others too have several clubs sharing one course.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 19, 2020, 22:01:31
Is PDC per course, or per club? Obviously thinking about our artisan club which is separate from the main club, but others too have several clubs sharing one course.

Do you remember the old TV series Record Breakers with Roy Castle and the Mcwhirter borthers?

It was a programmed about World /records and kid would come on and ask the Mcwhirter brothers "difficult" questions to see if they could find something that they didn't know. I only ever saw them stumped by one question...Which Tree has the most leaves?

You have just posed your own "Which tree has most leaves question".

I havent got a scooby doo what the answer is!!!

...and now I'm going to go and do some research including looking at a local club where I know they have an Atrisans section.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 19, 2020, 22:03:57
Sorry! I do remember Norris

I'm intrigued to see how this new system will work in practice. Most of our members aren't exactly IT literate, and often can't even fill in a scorecard properly. So the hope of them figuring out a handicap that can vary day to day and course to course seems remote to me
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: inoculator on Oct 19, 2020, 22:23:37
Is PDC per course, or per club? Obviously thinking about our artisan club which is separate from the main club, but others too have several clubs sharing one course.

It's per course.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 19, 2020, 22:54:38
Sorry! I do remember Norris

I'm intrigued to see how this new system will work in practice. Most of our members aren't exactly IT literate, and often can't even fill in a scorecard properly. So the hope of them figuring out a handicap that can vary day to day and course to course seems remote to me

I hope I can reassure you.
Firstly, you don't have to "figure out" your course handicap. You need to know your Handicap Index just as you needed to know your CONGU handicap.  You look up a chart on display  at the course which will show your Course Handicap for the course you are going to play (that's the only new step in the process).  You may have to adjust your Course Handicap for certain formats such as 90% for a four ball (that's familiar).  You enjoy your game (not new).  And if a medal or  stableford competition or a score you registered to submit for handicapping purposes, you put your handicap and gross scores on your scorecard and return it (nothing new there either). You might be required by your club also to enter your scores into a computer terminal just as you are used to doing.  And if you did return a score you need to check if your Handicap Index has changed before you play your next game as you are used to doing.   For all your games between returning a score for handicapping, your Handicap Index can't change and if as many do, you regularly play the same course, you will know your Course Handicap for that course from the first time and won't have to look anything up.

It really can be that easy with only the one difference in what you do from what you used to do - looking up your Course Handicap. 
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 20, 2020, 08:36:21
I thought players had to use a website or app to get their index - which is the part I don't see working. Right now there's a bit of paper on the wall. There's no computer at our club, not even a phone line, so if we are required to submit scores electronically I can't see how that will happen.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: srp973 on Oct 20, 2020, 08:43:45
Had an email from the club last night re Data Request from England Golf.........so looks like moving in the right direction.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 20, 2020, 09:04:29
we had that a few weeks back. the member's area on England Golf's site, which has the handicap record, is still down:
https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/ (https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 20, 2020, 09:25:44
we had that a few weeks back. the member's area on England Golf's site, which has the handicap record, is still down:
https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/ (https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/)

and you wont use that area.

There is anew site being developed. General golfers have not got access to it yet. Is suppose to be available sometime this week.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 20, 2020, 12:14:23
Is PDC per course, or per club? Obviously thinking about our artisan club which is separate from the main club, but others too have several clubs sharing one course.

Do you use the same computer handicapping software as the main club? i.e. on the same computer system?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 20, 2020, 12:32:27
Do you use the same computer handicapping software as the main club? i.e. on the same computer system?
Not sure - think no. We are completely independent from that point of view, but we play the same course.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 20, 2020, 12:35:25
Not sure - think no. We are completely independent from that point of view, but we play the same course.

Interesting....logic should dictate that because its one single course that only one PCC calculation should be made....but logic is a dangerous word to use in relation to the WHS.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Tonypate on Oct 20, 2020, 13:29:50
We've just been sent our handicap index list through - despite me getting back down to 6 (6.4) last weekend I appear to have gone up 0.9. A friend of mine that has always been higher than me is now lower at 6.3 (from7.1)  :huh:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 20, 2020, 13:35:25
If you are directly comparing your exact CONGU handicap with your new Handicap Index  you are not comparing like with like.  WHS moves us over  to a system of averaging your best most recent scores.  If you want to check that your Handicap Index is correctly calculated you should ignore your CONGU handicap and go through the calculation used in the WHS system:  find  the best 8 of your 20 most recent net differentials ; multiply each by 113 and divide by the slope rating of the course played to give you what is called the "score differentials"; find the average and that's your Handicap Index.  It's not necessarily going to be the same as your CONGU handicap as it shows the number of strokes you need to be on a level with a scratch player on a  course with a slope rating of 113.
 
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Tonypate on Oct 20, 2020, 13:45:01
If you are directly comparing your exact CONGU handicap with your new Handicap Index  you are not comparing like with like.  What you want to compare is the number of strokes you currently get for the course you usually return your scores from with the number of strokes you will now get for that course using your Handicap Index (your Course Handicap).

In that case I've gone up to 8 from 6 - by my reckoning my highest of the 8 will be a 79, lowest a 75, CSS usually 70? Course rating is 124. Maybe I've messed up some calcs, but I've made a lot of buffers recently and had 3 small cuts this year
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 20, 2020, 13:56:25
I added a bit to my post while you were writing yours.

If you can tell me your best 8 net differentials I can check the calculation out.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Tonypate on Oct 20, 2020, 14:11:07
I added a bit to my post while you were writing yours.

If you can tell me your best 8 net differentials I can check the calculation out.

Thanks Colin - I'd have to sit down and go through all the differentials later - I'll probably just do it myself - I take it it is the gross (less any adjustments) minus CSS and an average of the 8 best?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 20, 2020, 14:35:48
Thanks Colin - I'd have to sit down and go through all the differentials later - I'll probably just do it myself - I take it it is the gross (less any adjustments) minus CSS and an average of the 8 best?

tony its a bit more complicated as you need to take adjust your score to the current slope rating of your course as well.

https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html (https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html)

found this and seems to work great.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Tonypate on Oct 20, 2020, 14:42:31
Cheers Oli, Just done my last 8 good scores and comes out at 6.5. Is there a 2 year restriction on these cores though?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 20, 2020, 14:44:38
Cheers Oli, Just done my last 8 good scores and comes out at 6.5. Is there a 2 year restriction on these cores though?

i think there is but Nick would know more ;)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 20, 2020, 14:48:34
Cheers Oli, Just done my last 8 good scores and comes out at 6.5. Is there a 2 year restriction on these cores though?

The WHS will go back as far as Jan 2018 to build up your score history.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Oct 20, 2020, 14:49:23
tony its a bit more complicated as you need to take adjust your score to the current slope rating of your course as well.

https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html (https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html)

found this and seems to work great.

Cheers Oli - I put my scores (pitiful 3 scores as only have 10 qualifying according to EGU...long story) and it agrees with what Nick told me i.e. 15.2

That would put me at 18.2 off the whites on our Old course and 17.3 once 95% applied

I am currently 17.9 CONGU
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 20, 2020, 15:56:27
tony its a bit more complicated as you need to take adjust your score to the current slope rating of your course as well.

https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html (https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html)

found this and seems to work great.

Beware!!!

I've only looked at the course handicap calculator briefly and not the rest, but you need to be aware that it must be including Course Rating - Par in the calculation.    Individual handicapping authorities were given the option of including that in the Course Rating calculation or not.   CONGU has opted not to use it in the calculation of an eighteen hole course handicap.

In CONGU countries, the formula is  Course Handicap = Handicap Index x Slope Rating÷113
In other jurisdictions such as the USGA, it is Course Handicap = Handicap Index x Slope Rating÷113 + (Course Rating - Par)

Take for example the Course Handicap of a CONGU player with a Handicap Index of 20.0 where the Course Rating is 72, Slope Rating is 130 and the par is 70:
Course Handicap = 20 x 130 ÷ 113 = 23

In the US, the Course Handicap of the  equivalent  player on an equivalent course would be
20 x 130 ÷ 113 + (CR-Par) = 25 because of the 2 stroke difference between CR and Par.

The online calculator shows 25.


Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 20, 2020, 17:05:53
And twice beware!!

The Handicap Index calculation for a player with only  3 scores in his record is based on the best score differential of the three scores, further modified by a reduction of 2 strokes.
https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf (https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf)
[Rule 5.2a]

If you enter three scores in this online calculator you can see  it uses the average of the three score differentials and does not apply the -2 modification.  Try gross scores of 90, 82 and 88 for a Course Rating of 70 and a Slope Rating of 123.  The calculator shows a (http://) Handicap Index of 15.3 whereas you would actually get 9.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: freded on Oct 20, 2020, 17:20:21
And twice beware!!

The Handicap Index calculation for a player with only  3 scores in his record is based on the best score differential of the three scores, further modified by a reduction of 2 strokes.
https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf (https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf)
[Rule 5.2a]

If you enter three scores in this online calculator you can see  it uses the average of the three score differentials and does not apply the -2 modification.  Try gross scores of 90, 82 and 88 for a Course Rating of 70 and a Slope Rating of 123.  The calculator shows a (http://) Handicap Index of 15.3 whereas you would actually get 9.

I’ve only got six scores in and my current hdcp of 4.7 will drop to 1.6 under the new system until I record some
More scores
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 20, 2020, 18:05:03
I’ve only got six scores in and my current hdcp of 4.7 will drop to 1.6 under the new system until I record some
More scores

thats cos you were daft enough to shoot one really good score.

cant see you getting out for much golf with your impending arrival on its way!!!!  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 20, 2020, 18:40:16
So the calculator is wrong then? Wonder if they used that on mine?  :sarcastic: :sarcastic: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: freded on Oct 20, 2020, 21:00:08
thats cos you were daft enough to shoot one really good score.

cant see you getting out for much golf with your impending arrival on its way!!!!  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Very true!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 20, 2020, 22:51:10
I’ve only got six scores in and my current hdcp of 4.7 will drop to 1.6 under the new system until I record some
More scores

To generalise from what you say, I don't  think it advisable for anyone  to think in terms of their present handicap going up or down.  You are getting an entirely new handicap based on a different system and intended to reflect your actual, demonstrated playing ability as opposed to your potential as the CONGU UHS is. 

 I wouldn't expect a CONGU handicap of 4.7 to be replaced by a Handicap Index of 1.6 if the player had a full 20 scores in his record but Nick points to a possible reason.  Your HI will be based on the best two scores out of your six and one or even both of these could be unusually low.  Also, there is a one stroke reduction for having only six scores.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Chip Out Sideways on Oct 20, 2020, 23:23:43
There is a new thing called "Playing Conditions Calculation"...effectively it replaces CSS but is different, as it will be based on ALL scores from the day and will be applied to ALL scores on the day....so its not just for competitions.

Basically after all the submitted scores for a day (competition and social) are uploaded to the WHS at midnight, the WHS systems will analyse the scoring patterns and determine statistically the %age of players who scored better/worse than their expected score for their handicap. Depending on the results of this analysis there will be an adjustment to the Playing Conditions Calculation.

PCC will only be calculated once for any given day. If there are scores submitted the following day (e.g on a Monday for a Sunday) then those scores wont have any effect on the PCC but the PCC that was calculated will be applied to those scores.

The PCC adjustments can range from -1.0 to +3.0 shots.

This has an impact at clubs where typically competition cards are not processed by the committee until the following day as there would NEVER be any calculated PCC adjustment.

Surely if all the competitors enter their scores, and anyone else playing a game they enter, on a Sunday say, the software is intelligent enough to process this and not 'wait' for someone to close the day? We have to enter our scores on the day of the competition. Course conditions can be a large factor.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 21, 2020, 10:11:41
Surely if all the competitors enter their scores, and anyone else playing a game they enter, on a Sunday say, the software is intelligent enough to process this and not 'wait' for someone to close the day? We have to enter our scores on the day of the competition. Course conditions can be a large factor.

Well...not every club processes all cards on the day of a competition. Nor does every club have facilities where players can enter their own scores, and where they do exist, sometimes these facilities are not available to players who may finish their rounds late in the evening. There will always be instances where cards get entered into the system a day late for whatever reasons.

The PCC calculation does not get done by the local club computer....it will be performed by the WHS central system and will only be done shortly after midnight when the scores from every club in the land will be uploaded automatically to the WHS system (assuming they've built enough bandwidth into their system to cope with this mass upload!!). Unlike the current CSS calculation, the PCC calculation does not require a competition to be "closed" in order to be done, it gets done irrespective of whether all cards for a day have been submitted.

What folks are going to have to get their heads round is that the new WHS will see competition management and handicapping management separated into two distinct areas. Whereas currently your Club Systems, Handicapmaster, Intelligent Golf software does all the competition management and handicapping management as well as in some cases, bar and shop management, under the WHS these systems will be stripped of their responsibilities with regards to calculating players handicaps....the software packages will be very much dumbed down from what they are today. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the smaller ISV's decided to withdraw from the market some time down the line.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 21, 2020, 10:16:47
To generalise from what you say, I don't  think it advisable for anyone  to think in terms of their present handicap going up or down.  You are getting an entirely new handicap based on a different system and intended to reflect your actual, demonstrated playing ability as opposed to your potential as the CONGU UHS is. 

 I wouldn't expect a CONGU handicap of 4.7 to be replaced by a Handicap Index of 1.6 if the player had a full 20 scores in his record but Nick points to a possible reason.  Your HI will be based on the best two scores out of your six and one or even both of these could be unusually low.  Also, there is a one stroke reduction for having only six scores.

Colin, I've seen his scores ...only 6 rounds and his 2 counting scores are low and very low!!!
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: hotbaws on Oct 21, 2020, 18:18:00
Nick / Colin, I know the Scottish software system will be slightly different from the English but hopefully this is a question you may be able to answer....

How will it work if your recent scores are over different courses? Lanark is my home club and St Andrews is my away and I’ve got scores recorded over 4 st Andrews course and Lanark.

I’ve got my last twenty rounds from HDID and the course and can get the css when looking into the view results section.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201021/a7157438402c2b26259dae41557eb6d7.jpg)


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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 21, 2020, 19:07:16
Nick / Colin, I know the Scottish software system will be slightly different from the English but hopefully this is a question you may be able to answer....

How will it work if your recent scores are over different courses? Lanark is my home club and St Andrews is my away and I’ve got scores recorded over 4 st Andrews course and Lanark.



The gross differentials of your scores at different courses are normalised down to represent a score over a course which has a slope rating of 113.... they are effectively adjusted based on the slope rating of the course you played.

Example...

A gross differential of say 10 at a course with a slope rating of 138 will for purposes of your handicap record be converted into a "normalised" differential of 10/138 * 113 = 8.2

A gross diff of 10 at a course with slope of 120 will appear in your record as a differential of 10/120 * 113 = 9.4

So you can see that although the gross differential was the same, in terms of your handicap record the score over the course with the higher slope index is a better score.

It is equally feasible that a higher score differential may result in a better score on your record if it was played over a harder course. Lets say you shot a gross diff of 9 on the 120 slope rated course, this would come out at a score on your record of 8.5

So...once you have a scoring record of 20 scores, the best 8 "normalised" differentials will be the ones that will be averaged to determine your handicap index.
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: hotbaws on Oct 21, 2020, 23:01:52
Thanks Nick, I’ve got 20+ scores in my HDID so I’ll have a look through tomorrow and see what it works out at roughly


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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Oct 22, 2020, 14:33:51
Portal live but only shows my 15.2 (as Nick had said it would be) but not history because it claims it doesn't have my email address!!!!

...but they email me EGU newsletters all the time!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Oct 22, 2020, 14:44:00
https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/ (https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 22, 2020, 15:28:08
I was expecting a few shots back but gone down to 5.2 :(
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 22, 2020, 15:39:13
Your handicap didn't go down.  You've been given a new handicap arrived at in a different way, based on your gross scores without any reference to what your CONGU handicap is. It is the difference between you and a scratch golfer on a course of standard difficulty not the one(s) you played.

I suggest you compare how many strokes your 5.2 will give you on the course you normally play (your Course Handicap)   with what  your CONGU playing handicap gives you.  Multiply 5.2 by the Slope Rating of your course and divide by 113.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 22, 2020, 15:46:12
:) thanks. Are those course ratings online, or you have to get them the club themselves?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 22, 2020, 15:52:23
It's the Slope Rating you need.  The Course Rating is essentially the SSS but to one decimal place rather than rounded up or down. I expect your club will know the Slope Ratings for your course and it will end up being on your scorecards.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 22, 2020, 16:04:20
I don't know if these (https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=24716)  are correct but if they are, the day tees are slope 129 so my normal handicap is 5.2*129/113=5.9=6? So what I am now :)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 22, 2020, 16:28:45
So what I am now :)

I've got a better grasp of the WHS than of existentialism so I won't be answering that.   The calculation shows that your Course Handicap  for the "Weekday" Course is 6.  If you played your "Pinto" Course, it would be 5 .

Your Handicap Index is a standardised measure which you can take to any rated course and use to get your tailor-made handicap is for that course. 
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 22, 2020, 16:51:43
Portal live but only shows my 15.2 (as Nick had said it would be) but not history because it claims it doesn't have my email address!!!!

...but they email me EGU newsletters all the time!!!

ahh....but this new site is a front end for the WHS system run by someone who is not England Golf...it is the WHS system that does not have your email address.

(Your email address should be uploaded to the WHS platform via the Handicapping Software that your club uses)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Oct 22, 2020, 17:03:58
ahh....but this new site is a front end for the WHS system run by someone who is not England Golf...it is the WHS system that does not have your email address.

(Your email address should be uploaded to the WHS platform via the Handicapping Software that your club uses)

Emailed the club and they called me to say they have not released the emails to the supplier yet so will all be sorted once that is done...seems a faff
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Stanster on Oct 22, 2020, 17:07:44
I don't know if these (https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=24716)  are correct but if they are, the day tees are slope 129 so my normal handicap is 5.2*129/113=5.9=6? So what I am now :)

Still.a bandit  :cowboy:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 22, 2020, 17:26:41
Still.a bandit  :cowboy:

Pot. Kettle. Black.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 22, 2020, 17:52:46
You forgot you 95% for stroke play or stableford shanky
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Pleasedwith3putts on Oct 22, 2020, 18:36:49
Absolutely baffling. The England Golf website is showing my indicative handicap as 2 shots higher than I calculate it to be. Anyone want a game for a few quid  :D
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Oct 22, 2020, 19:05:11
You forgot you 95% for stroke play or stableford shanky
I realized after. Simple if you know (!)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Chip Out Sideways on Oct 22, 2020, 22:42:34
At least most of you can now look your new handicap index up. Despite having a CDH for 10 years neither Nick or I can look my handicap up as I don't seem to exist! My CDH begins with a 4; Nick says EGU/CONGU handicaps start with a 1. Not sure whether this is because my CDH was first given to me when I was in Scotland, and I am now in England, but it is really frustrating. I just tried using the link Scott posted and it refused to recognise my CDH to allow me to set up an account - despite being a member with a playing handicap at a club in England for 5 years now....I have played 20 qualifiers over 2019/2020 which shoe on my HowdidIdo so I can make a calculation but something official would be nice. I should add, despite 2 terrible years, I support the new system and think it is much better - just different and for us old timers we need to readjust our thinking as to what handicap is.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Oct 22, 2020, 23:58:56
Beginning with a 4 means that it's  a Scottish CDH number.   You could try contacting Scottish Golf to see if any of the handicapping team can help:

handicapping@scottishgolf.org
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 23, 2020, 09:21:06
no PCC adjustment on the scores,( they haven't taken into account the CSS adjustments from the look of it) i suspect i might get a slightly lower index
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 23, 2020, 09:24:03
no PCC adjustment on the scores,( they haven't taken into account the CSS adjustments from the look of it) i suspect i might get a slightly lower index

you are quite correct. The WHS bodies know this and may or may not resolve this when they do the final upload on November 1st.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 23, 2020, 09:49:52
Well i hope they do take it into account I had a 77 with css gone up 2 shots so effectively a 75, this would lower my index a bit.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 23, 2020, 10:12:53
My HI is 12.4 - CONGU 12.7 - playing handicap 13

All 8 of my best were at Inverurie but some off whites and some off yellows but show same slope if 124

Not sure CSS changed much if at all for any them
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Tonypate on Oct 23, 2020, 10:27:15
I'm getting my head around it now.

I had a bad year scoring last year and the one before, so even though I've played well this year, the previous years are lifting my handicap back up.

I've got 2 of my counting scores due to come off, one will be replaced with a decent score, so when I play this weekend I need to beat the other counting score to maintain / reduce. That will see off the historical scores and have mostly this years scores counting.  I could be in a situation where the best 8 rounds will be taken from my last 9 rounds, effectively giving me 11 "free hits" without the HI increasing.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 23, 2020, 10:35:43
It seems to have ignored away scores!

Moray with a 5.7 differential not included in my best 8
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Oct 23, 2020, 17:41:28
Not sure if this has been covered
My course is par 71 but currently the sss is 71 whites and 69 yellows

Under the new system which has no sss is it just that your handicap is adjusted to the slope rating of the tees?

Slope white = 126
Slope yellow = 124

So for someone off 10 playing in a singles comp it would be

Whites 10 x 126 /113 = 11.15   95% = 10.6
Yellows 10 x 124 / 113 = 10.97  95% = 10.4

comps are whites in the summer and yellows in the winter and the two shot difference in sss has put a lot of the low handicappers off entering comps off the yellows.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 23, 2020, 17:56:57
Not sure if this has been covered
My course is par 71 but currently the sss is 71 whites and 69 yellows

Under the new system which has no sss is it just that your handicap is adjusted to the slope rating of the tees?

Slope white = 126
Slope yellow = 124

So for someone off 10 playing in a singles comp it would be

Whites 10 x 126 /113 = 11.15   95% = 10.6
Yellows 10 x 124 / 113 = 10.97  95% = 10.4

The issue we have is that comps are whites in the summer and yellows in the winter and the two shot difference in sss has put a lot of the low handicappers off entering comps off the yellows since it was reassessed from 70 sss down to 69 a couple of years ago.

Essentially yes however....in England the 10*126/113 = 11.15 is rounded down to 11 before applying the 95% allowance...so it would give 10.45 which rounds down to 10 as a playing handicap.

I say in England because in Scotland, who have decided to go their own way on a number of issues, they will not round the course handicap to a whole number before making the 95% playing handicap calculation.

This is going to be great in 4BBB matchplay where someone stands on the first tee north of the border and says..."well I'm the low guy off 7.7, Brian is of 13.4 so he gets errr 13.4-7.7 = 5.7 * 90% equals err....hang on a minute...need to get my phone out".

Are the low guys put off from playing off the yellows in comps because they need to shoot a couple of scores lower in order to buffer (not that there will be a buffer under the WHS either!!!)?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Oct 23, 2020, 18:14:06
Are the low guys put off from playing off the yellows in comps because they need to shoot a couple of scores lower in order to buffer (not that there will be a buffer under the WHS either!!!)?

It doesn’t help. I’m sure it was always stated that with the Congu system you should only expect to be buffering 1 in 4 rounds if you have no buffer or for the cat1 guys negative buffer its perceived as being much harder.  I also believe sss was not a good indication of difficult as you still have to hit the ball in the right place and get it in the hole even if the course is slightly shorter  :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 23, 2020, 19:05:44
It doesn’t help. I’m sure it was always stated that with the Congu system you should only expect to be buffering 1 in 4 rounds if you have no buffer or for the cat1 guys negative buffer its perceived as being much harder.  I also believe sss was not a good indication of difficult as you still have to hit the ball in the right place and get it in the hole even if the course is slightly shorter  :chuckle:

Ahhh....the old Congu system was all about a measure of your golfing "potential"...the new WHS is more a reflection of your current actual demonstrated ability.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Chip Out Sideways on Oct 23, 2020, 19:36:06
Beginning with a 4 means that it's  a Scottish CDH number.   You could try contacting Scottish Golf to see if any of the handicapping team can help:

handicapping@scottishgolf.org

Yes, Nick and I did wonder whether it was Scottish, but when I queried it today via th e club I was told it was Welch! Scottish would make sense as I lived in Scotland for a while and was a member of a couple of clubs while there. However, I have now been assigned a new CDH - I can't imagine what might go wrong......
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 23, 2020, 21:44:36
It seems to have ignored away scores!

Moray with a 5.7 differential not included in my best 8

My error - handily it shows your last 21 scores which means you can see the score that dropped off if you want to check any handicap change
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Pleasedwith3putts on Oct 24, 2020, 10:01:35
Absolutely baffling. The England Golf website is showing my indicative handicap as 2 shots higher than I calculate it to be. Anyone want a game for a few quid  :D

Now I've got access to the actual data it's because a number of scores are missing and its uploaded some recent scores as being off the ladies tees which have a CSS 6 shots lower  :banghead:

Hopefully the system will upload more data and reset ahead of launch
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 24, 2020, 16:01:09
Scotland has lots of issues too:

All tees same slope used at InverurieGC

All scores from both Old and New courses at Moray treated as off white tees on the Old. SSS on Old is 3 higher  than New.

There are unlikely to be any qualifying scores in Scotland until next March so should be sorted out by then - hopefully!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: liyxapt on Oct 24, 2020, 16:29:25
Speaking to our Handicap secretary today, he said that the scores uploaded were only taking into account the course standard scratch and not the Competition SS. As such, if you play on a course that routinely goes up by a shot or 2, your handicap will be artificially high to start. Does anyone know if this is the case across the board? Seems strange.

He also said that the EGU and Intelligent Golf will not be fixing the issue, but I can’t believe that will be the case given how elite players playing in big events where the CSS increases, will be impacted.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 24, 2020, 20:40:23
Speaking to our Handicap secretary today, he said that the scores uploaded were only taking into account the course standard scratch and not the Competition SS. As such, if you play on a course that routinely goes up by a shot or 2, your handicap will be artificially high to start. Does anyone know if this is the case across the board? Seems strange.

He also said that the EGU and Intelligent Golf will not be fixing the issue, but I can’t believe that will be the case given how elite players playing in big events where the CSS increases, will be impacted.

Yes, certainly in England it is across the board. Current historical scores that have been used to determine a players index do not take into account any variations in CSS. I can see this in my own record of scores.

To be fair...it is not Intelligent Golfs (or any other software provider) job to fix this issue. The current scores that have been used have been extracted by the WHS from scoring records on the current England Golf CDH platform, as of the end of September.

These records hold CSS information for each round and it is purely that the WHS system has for some reason not taken these variations into account...it is their problem to fix. Have not heard anything specific to say that they will not be fixing it. I guess we will find out when they finalise their database on November 1st.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: liyxapt on Oct 24, 2020, 21:14:10
Awesome; thanks for clarifying, really hope they sort it or we could end up with some real club by club anomalies.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Oct 26, 2020, 12:31:21
So finally got my full access to WHS data  :picard:

So I currently have an index of 15.2 but I think it should be 16.0 (current CONGU h'cap is 17.9)

There are a load of anomalies though :-(

1. WHS data has only 10 scores since 1/1/2018 listed where as I have 17 qualifying scores in that time period - the missing ones are random i.e. not all consecutive

2. This means of course that with 10 scores they have taken average of best 3 rather than best 6 which would be the case with 17 scores

For 4 of the rounds they have included from my old club they have them off the yellows when they were off the whites which means course rating and slope are wrong

So all in all a cracking job they are doing so far .... I cant see this being all corrected in time for go live on Monday



Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 26, 2020, 14:35:40
It’s looking more like this has been incredibly badly project managed.

CSS - par should have been specified as the base score and Correct tees should have been used.

Nobody seems to have done any data checking before the data was ‘published‘.

Most software companies wouldn’t survive in the commercial world with this ineptitude.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Chip Out Sideways on Oct 26, 2020, 20:19:17
So after being told by via my club manager that I had been allocated a new CDH and that it would take approximately 2 hours for it to go live for so I could register an account at 5pm today the system was still not recognising my new number...

My last cut was exactly 20 rounds ago when CSS went up 3 shots if that is not taken into account properly my new handicap will be even higher.

I agree with DIS that this seems to be very badly managed. This has been on the cards for literally years now and there seem to be a lot of errors. It is club managers, secretaries, handicap conveners etc. that I feel sorry for having to deal with this mess.
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Oct 26, 2020, 22:26:59
What I'm struggling to work out is when I access my handicap record all my scores are correct and listed properly but on my estimated WHS they are a complete cock up, it's the same app ffs.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Oct 30, 2020, 17:41:58
Scottish Golf have published a detailed article about how they have calculated WHS HI and some of the issues they faced in trying to convert data.

 https://scottishgolf.org/whs-initial-handicap-index-explained/ (https://scottishgolf.org/whs-initial-handicap-index-explained/)

NBC’s - You need to download from the ‘button’ above the article

It explains tee issues and also course issues in places like StAndrews
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 30, 2020, 18:03:10
Scottish Golf have published a detailed article about how they have calculated WHS HI and some of the issues they faced in trying to convert data.

 https://scottishgolf.org/whs-initial-handicap-index-explained/ (https://scottishgolf.org/whs-initial-handicap-index-explained/)

NBC’s - You need to download from the ‘button’ above the article

It explains tee issues and also course issues in places like StAndrews

I read that earlier....like lets blame everyone else and say the data was no good.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 30, 2020, 19:25:31
Can clubs challenge the slope assigned to their course? I’m just not convinced our course is correct. I get 3 more shots at a course nearby which I find a lot easier.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Oct 30, 2020, 19:53:38
Can clubs challenge the slope assigned to their course? I’m just not convinced our course is correct. I get 3 more shots at a course nearby which I find a lot easier.

They can ask for it to be re-rated but that isn't something that is likely to happen for many many months certainly unlikely to be well into 2021 before it would happen

What is the other course?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Oct 30, 2020, 23:08:31
Wildernesse is 146 I think. Ours is 120

Even a pay and play field down the road is 115

So WHS index 13 comes to 16 playing I think
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Oct 30, 2020, 23:19:47
ours has been moved to the top of the list to be re rated as the women slope rating his stupidly high, we should have a new measurement and rating next year.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Galway Stevie on Nov 02, 2020, 14:45:39
Having moved club at the start of October I think I've broken the WHS on Golf Irelands set

I have a GUI profile it seems for Ardee golf club and Greenore meaning that based on the 2 competition scores I had before lockdown at Greenore give me an index of 11.9 and playing handicap at Greenore of 13.4 My handicap index based on the last 20 scores on my Ardee profile give me an index of 14.3 and a playing handicap in Greenore of 16.8.

I've enquired about getting both profiles merged to make it clearer but kind of confusing for now
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Nov 03, 2020, 10:56:30
Ok so I received an answer from WHS/EGU regarding my missing scores - apparently they are NR's

That is bollox as they excluded 3 round Jan to March which were the monthly stablefords!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: euros on Nov 03, 2020, 11:45:01
Just looked and I've been chopped by 3 shots, down to 11
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 03, 2020, 13:14:18
It doesn’t look like we can see the soft and hard caps on our WHS profiles
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Tonypate on Nov 03, 2020, 13:29:22
Not sure if they have now adjusted for CSS but I've gone from a 7.3HI to a 6.4HI - there has been 1 counting round since the first HI allocation the other week, but not enough to have made that much of a difference I wouldn't have though (4.6 score differential)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: srp973 on Nov 03, 2020, 13:55:56
Tony - yes I believe so as I've dropped 0.2 because of this.

Few lads at our place not happy........

New member who joined at end of last lockdown - given 21 and got down to 15 - now given 11.8
Guy off 6 now off 2.8
Another lad of 1 now of +1.8.....

Pity we all stopped as sure there would have been some interesting discussions following this weekend if we'd all played.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 03, 2020, 14:33:14
It doesn’t look like we can see the soft and hard caps on our WHS profiles

No it seems it doesn't show it....but all you have to do is to look for your lowest index held over the past year and the soft cap will be 3 shots higher and the hard cap 5 shots higher.

Something that has caused a bit of confusion amongst a few people I know....when you display the list of scores in your record and the far right column is WHS Index....this is the index that the round was played off. It is not the index that you now have as a result of this round....by putting it at the end folks have been thinking that it is what their index is after that round has been played.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 03, 2020, 15:41:32
Confusion reigns. We have a stableford competition tomorrow and we have been told to use the course handicap.

So I’ve asked the secretary what does the marker write down for points on the hole where playing index says you don’t get a shot but the course handicap says you do....

He said you would get 2 points but the marker would write down 3 as he’s using the course handicap not the playing handicap.

This 95% is b******s they should have changed the course handicap to include this calculation or alternatively allowance should be 100%.

It’s going to confuse the hell out of everyone in stableford competitions
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: om on Nov 03, 2020, 15:46:07
still showing 7.9 on hdid and can't see my cdh number to login back to the whs site to check if css was added to results, some weird handicap from my club as well, most likely still being uploaded
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Nov 03, 2020, 16:09:46
Confusion reigns. We have a stableford competition tomorrow and we have been told to use the course handicap.

So I’ve asked the secretary what does the marker write down for points on the hole where playing index says you don’t get a shot but the course handicap says you do....

He said you would get 2 points but the marker would write down 3 as he’s using the course handicap not the playing handicap.

This 95% is b******s they should have changed the course handicap to include this calculation or alternatively allowance should be 100%.

It’s going to confuse the hell out of everyone in stableford competitions

The way I understand it you put your course handicap on your card and record the scores appropriate to that handicap the computer then works out the 95% once it’s been entered
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 03, 2020, 16:12:25
Confusion reigns. We have a stableford competition tomorrow and we have been told to use the course handicap.

So I’ve asked the secretary what does the marker write down for points on the hole where playing index says you don’t get a shot but the course handicap says you do....

He said you would get 2 points but the marker would write down 3 as he’s using the course handicap not the playing handicap.

This 95% is b******s they should have changed the course handicap to include this calculation or alternatively allowance should be 100%.

It’s going to confuse the hell out of everyone in stableford competitions

Avoid confusion.  Players do not have to write down their points and even if they do and get it wrong there is no penalty and the software will get it right Players do not even need to know their playing handicap and the safest way of avoiding picking up when you could still score a point is to know only your course handicap. If a player does want to know his playing handicap and makes a mistake by picking up too soon that's his own doing, his own responsibility.  Leave playing handicaps to the computers: they are paid to do the sums.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Galway Stevie on Nov 03, 2020, 16:32:51
I sent a message to my handicap secretary at Greenore today to see if he could help me sort out the fact I have 2 handicap indexes and he just manually added 2 shots to my index meaning I still have 2 indexes and both give me 2 extra shots off the white tees at my home course.  :banghead:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 03, 2020, 16:38:07
Basically using course handicaps and marking points as people have been doing since day 1 is now a waste of time. What they think they’ve got is always going to be wrong as most of the time it will be one less.

So in medal you are always going to be one shot worse as well.

I understand it but 90% of the old boy members will be mailing in asking why they have been deducted a point. Maybe it’s just our club as they dumped all the docs on the website and expected everyone to understand it. We’ve not had any info apart from that.

The allowance muddies the waters and make its more complicated for the average Joe.



Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 03, 2020, 16:40:15
The way I understand it you put your course handicap on your card and record the scores appropriate to that handicap the computer then works out the 95% once it’s been entered

But if you were having a knock about with a friend you would have to apply it
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Nov 03, 2020, 17:10:12
But if you were having a knock about with a friend you would have to apply it

I don’t think so the course handicap is what your handicap is calculated from regardless of the playing handicap for a competition.

Ie you shoot 36 points but for the comp it’s 35 points

Your score for handicapping purposes will still be 36 points I believe

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 03, 2020, 17:23:04
I don’t think so the course handicap is what your handicap is calculated from regardless of the playing handicap for a competition.

Ie you shoot 36 points but for the comp it’s 35 points

Your score for handicapping purposes will still be 36 points

Now I'm confused.

If we play a singles stableford together outside of a competition, we would have to apply the 95% to our course handicap and play off our playing handicap.

In competitions because the computer applies the 95%, we use the course handicap.

Well that's the way I understood it...…  :unsure:


Individual stroke play, Stableford, par/bogey, maximum score: 95%
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Nov 03, 2020, 17:26:40
Now I'm confused.

If we play a singles stableford together outside of a competition, we would have to apply the 95% to our course handicap and play off our playing handicap.

In competitions because the computer applies the 95%, we use the course handicap.

Well that's the way I understood it...…  :unsure:


Individual stroke play, Stableford, par/bogey, maximum score: 95%


What I said above may not be 100% right but was what I was told  :eyebrow:

General play / social rounds should be played off course handicap
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 03, 2020, 17:32:51
Now I'm confused.

If we play a singles stableford together outside of a competition, we would have to apply the 95% to our course handicap and play off our playing handicap.

In competitions because the computer applies the 95%, we use the course handicap.

Well that's the way I understood it...…  :unsure:


Individual stroke play, Stableford, par/bogey, maximum score: 95%

The purpose of the handicap allowance in a  stroke play competition is to counter the imbalance in favour of higher handicappers that  100% would create.  It makes the  competition fairer.  If you are just having a knockabout with a friend that purpose is irrelevant.  Forget playing handicaps.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 03, 2020, 17:34:52
So what about a swindle...….course or playing?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Nov 03, 2020, 17:38:46
So what about a swindle...….course or playing?

Course hcp for everything except official comps
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 03, 2020, 17:47:30
So what about a swindle...….course or playing?

Let the swindlers decide.  It's just a casual game amongst friends. 
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Nov 03, 2020, 17:50:41
So what about a swindle...….course or playing?

Presumably depends what the competition committee - organiser - decides?

For competitions the Scottish Golf app shows HI - CH - and PH when I played using it yesterday.

The app also shows both CH and PH for the guy you’re scoring for.

As I understand it if you are putting a casual round score in you use the CH.

There are various percentages used for different formats ( as previously) 4BBB as an example
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 03, 2020, 17:55:10
Let the swindlers decide.  It's just a casual game amongst friends.

Ok. I've been under the impression that the allowances were for all golf, competition or not.....
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Nov 03, 2020, 18:23:58
Ok. I've been under the impression that the allowances were for all golf, competition or not.....
Do you put your swindle scores in for hcp purposes under the old system?

All the new stuff only really matters if your submitting your scores.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 03, 2020, 20:09:37
I don’t think so the course handicap is what your handicap is calculated from regardless of the playing handicap for a competition.

Ie you shoot 36 points but for the comp it’s 35 points

Your score for handicapping purposes will still be 36 points I believe

You are quite correct Dave.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Nov 04, 2020, 08:40:02
Any one still got missing scores or tee / course errors?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Pleasedwith3putts on Nov 04, 2020, 09:23:55
No, mine is finally correct.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: srp973 on Nov 04, 2020, 10:38:17
Another 0.1 reduction overnight...... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

By the end of this lockdown I'll be off scratch without even hitting a ball.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Nov 04, 2020, 11:07:19
Ok so I received an answer from WHS/EGU regarding my missing scores - apparently they are NR's

That is bollox as they excluded 3 round Jan to March which were the monthly stablefords!

So WHS has washed their hands of it - bet clubs are chuffed
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Chip Out Sideways on Nov 04, 2020, 21:51:45
England Golf still claim not to have my email address - they do.

My club manager gave me my new handicap he can see - it is wrong on 2 counts.

1) It only shows 9 rounds - I have 20+ counting rounds in last 18 months
2) All scores from our club repeatedly using the wrong slope despite our manager telling them daily it is wrong

It is a complete shambles....I also needed to be given a new CDH as old one England Golf could not use.....
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Nov 05, 2020, 09:59:17
England Golf still claim not to have my email address - they do.

My club manager gave me my new handicap he can see - it is wrong on 2 counts.

1) It only shows 9 rounds - I have 20+ counting rounds in last 18 months
2) All scores from our club repeatedly using the wrong slope despite our manager telling them daily it is wrong

It is a complete shambles....I also needed to be given a new CDH as old one England Golf could not use.....

You have my sympathy - I am missing 7 rounds and 4 that are there are wrong tees - I have given up trying to get stuff fixed

When I moved clubs it was a shambles too

Would love to know what they were paying for this implementation - if I was EGU I would be negotiating a big discount and have a very long snagging list
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Stanster on Nov 05, 2020, 10:27:49
 Should that n be an h  :lol:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 05, 2020, 13:06:36
Should that n be an h  :lol:

You get a handicap index for that? :p
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 05, 2020, 14:44:05
You get a handicap index for that? :p

yeah but you need to have submitted 3 "scores" in the past year and the majority of the guys on here would struggle in that regard  :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: SkankyShanky on Nov 05, 2020, 15:30:26
+ you can't play more than 3 holes in any one "game"
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 05, 2020, 16:53:46
+ you can't play more than 3 holes in any one "game"

  :omg: :omg: :omg: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Nov 05, 2020, 17:11:52
Nick

How are your endeavours with trying to get a game with Rebekah going?

 :rolleyes:
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Nov 06, 2020, 22:26:04
We've still had absolutely no communication whatsoever from our match committee on any aspect of the WHS or even an acknowledgement that there's even been a change. Our winter comp starts tomorrow and the only information we have is that we play off 3/4 handicaps.

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 06, 2020, 22:54:18
That's bad.  The only bit of information you are given is wrong.
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: hotbaws on Nov 06, 2020, 23:59:16
Kev,

Like wise and I’ve still to get a useful response from the SGU about how they have 5 of my 8 selected scores duplicated and how more importantly they are going to sort it. They said it was the data supplied from the club that was wrong which is a lie as I checked beforehand and now they say the clubs will have tools to sort it.


It’s a joke, pathetic how it can be so badly done after all the time they had and now they just wash their hands of the cock up that we’ve paid for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 07, 2020, 08:57:05
Kev,

Like wise and I’ve still to get a useful response from the SGU about how they have 5 of my 8 selected scores duplicated and how more importantly they are going to sort it. They said it was the data supplied from the club that was wrong which is a lie as I checked beforehand and now they say the clubs will have tools to sort it.


It’s a joke, pathetic how it can be so badly done after all the time they had and now they just wash their hands of the cock up that we’ve paid for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You will get the "tools" you need next week.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 07, 2020, 13:30:06
You will get the "tools" you need next week.

Will they include a size 7 general purpose fault fixing hammer?

i.e. give it a good whack and it should start working again.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 08, 2020, 10:13:39
So we had a competition last Wednesday off the yellows but they have added a stroke mixed amendment on it of 1.7 for men and 2.8 for women so we have 2 more shots than we thought we had.

What the hell is that?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 08, 2020, 11:07:47
Need to to know more to help you.

What format? Medal, stableford or what?   Did the men and women both play off the yellows tees? And what do you mean by a "stroke mixed amendment"?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 08, 2020, 11:09:17
So we had a competition last Wednesday off the yellows but they have added a stroke mixed amendment on it of 1.7 for men and 2.8 for women so we have 2 more shots than we thought we had.

What the hell is that?

It looks like Handicapping Rule 6.2 might be your friend here...

When a competition is played from two or more sets of tees (such as mixed gender or mixed ability events), depending on the format of play and any difference in Course Rating between tees, additional strokes may need to be added to the standard calculation of the Playing Handicap for equity purposes and to determine finishing positions, results and prizes.

(i) Stroke Play and Match Play formats (where results are recorded as gross ornet scores).

For an 18-hole round: A player competing from a set of tees with a higher Course Rating must receive additional strokes for the round, equal to the difference between the Course Rating of the tees they are playing and the tees with the lowest Course Rating.

These additional strokes are added to the player’s Playing Handicap as follows:

Playing Handicap = (Course Handicap x handicap allowance) + difference in Course Ratings

Note: As an alternative, when the majority of the field are playing from the tees with the highest Course Rating, players competing from a set of tees with a lower Course Rating may be allocated less strokes for the round, equal to the difference between the Course Ratings

ii) Stableford formats

For an 18-hole round: The number of points required for all players to ‘play to handicap’ must be calculated from each applicable set of tees. Those players requiring the highest number of points to ‘play to handicap’ receive no additional strokes to the standard calculation of their Playing Handicap.

All players playing from a set of tees requiring a lower number of points to ‘play to handicap’ will receive additional strokes to their Playing Handicap equal to the difference between the number of points they require to ‘play to handicap’ and the highest number of points required by other players.

These additional strokes are added to the player’s Playing Handicap as follows:

Playing Handicap =(Course Handicap x handicap allowance) + difference in number of points required to 'play to handicap' (highest to lowest)

So basically, an adjustment has to be made (just like it is today) for events played off multiple tees to reflect the relative difference in difficulties of the sets of tees involved. In the past you may have heard this wrongly referred to as "courtesy shots" when women and men played in the same event.

In your example though...knowing what I know about Crowboroughs Course Ratings....I'm not sure why players playing off the yellow tees would require additional shots. I need to set up a dummy comp in our system and have a play to see how it works properly.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 08, 2020, 22:59:49
There’s a few annoyed members as they have picked up on holes when they shouldn’t have done. Also not knowing this before the competition affects strategy on the course during the round.
I’m wondering if the competition was played off whites yellows and reds whether whites would get zero change.....

The top three scores were 45 points  :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 09, 2020, 09:48:25
There’s a few annoyed members as they have picked up on holes when they shouldn’t have done. Also not knowing this before the competition affects strategy on the course during the round.
I’m wondering if the competition was played off whites yellows and reds whether whites would get zero change.....

The top three scores were 45 points  :chuckle:

Bit concerning that you quote a stableford score for the results but when you quoted the stroke amendments you quoted decimals. The decimal adjustment is made for medals, stablefords are adjusted by whole shots.

The tee that gets zero change in Medal is the tee with the lowest Course Rating.

The tee that gets zero change in Stableford is the tee where it takes the highest number of Stableford Points to "play to handicap". The number of points to play to handicap is determined by the formula

36 - (Course Rating - Par) with the result of the formula rounded to a whole number.

At my pace this results in the Ladies needing to shoot 36 points off the Reds, the Men needing to shot 37 off the Whites and 39 points off the Yellows. So if we had a three tee comp, the players playing off the Yellows would get no adjustment, those off the whites would get 2 additional shots and the ladies off the reds would get 3 additional shots.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 09, 2020, 22:58:01
From the club....

The Mixed Tee Amendment is something that has always been in the rules however, in the past we have had more flexibility as to who this is applied to. I.e. if we had a field of 50, 49 playing from the Yellows and one from the Blues, in the past we would have made a reduction to the one person’s playing handicap in order to keep things simple for as many as possible. Unfortunately, under the WHS, we no longer have any flexibility, and in the aforementioned situation, the opposite would apply, i.e. the playing handicaps of all those playing on the ‘harder’ course must be increased.

Accordingly, for all future multi-tee competitions, you will see an increase made to your playing handicap if you are playing from any tee other than the 'easiest', in this case, the Men's Blue. To see how the 1.7 is calculated, see page 37 of attached and separate Word Document with CBGC specifics for this particular set of tees.

In a Men's Trophy competition where everyone is playing from the White Tees, there won't be this adjustment


Problem is most comps are now inclusive so not sure how many comps will be men only.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Nov 17, 2020, 11:52:19
Ok so with the help of my old club I have managed to get missing rounds added and tees corrected but I have question for the guru's...is this how transition should have worked?

One of my missing rounds was a stableford from March this year (just before lockdown) where I blobbed a couple of holes including #6 which is SI2 par 4

On the daymy CONGU handicap was 17.9 playing 18 so for H'cap that blob it was recorded as net double so a 7

When the round is added the WHS system takes my HI of 17.6 based on rounds to that point, adjusts for course and tees and gave me a playing h'cap of 21 so my blob becomes an 8 *net double on SI 2 with 2 strokes)

Feels like an anomaly but TBH I am exhausted with the back and forth

As someone who is bothered enough to be on forums, reading about it etc I wonder how "Wrong" so many handicaps are of folks who simply havent checked - from my group of a dozen or so regualr PP I know at least half had problems
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: srp973 on Nov 17, 2020, 12:18:07
England Golf App now up on the App stores.......

Interesting as can search any player or course in England now........
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 17, 2020, 13:21:52
Ok so with the help of my old club I have managed to get missing rounds added and tees corrected but I have question for the guru's...is this how transition should have worked?

One of my missing rounds was a stableford from March this year (just before lockdown) where I blobbed a couple of holes including #6 which is SI2 par 4

On the daymy CONGU handicap was 17.9 playing 18 so for H'cap that blob it was recorded as net double so a 7

When the round is added the WHS system takes my HI of 17.6 based on rounds to that point, adjusts for course and tees and gave me a playing h'cap of 21 so my blob becomes an 8 *net double on SI 2 with 2 strokes)

Feels like an anomaly but TBH I am exhausted with the back and forth

As someone who is bothered enough to be on forums, reading about it etc I wonder how "Wrong" so many handicaps are of folks who simply havent checked - from my group of a dozen or so regualr PP I know at least half had problems

Same question as I asked on the Golf Monthly forum.  Which bit do think is an anomaly?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Nov 17, 2020, 14:33:30
Same question as I asked on the Golf Monthly forum.  Which bit do think is an anomaly?

That in March AGS was 97 and now its 98 ... if that how it is intended to work fair play
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 17, 2020, 16:12:02
That in March AGS was 97 and now its 98 ... if that how it is intended to work fair play

This is the issue with retrospectively adding scores...the system needs to make some determination as to what a score would be for a blobbed hole and....it seems logical that, for the purposes of determining  what your scores would be on holes that you have blobbed, the system uses your Handicap Index (that it has retrospectively determined) for that round, to calculate where you would have got your shots....and if you had a course handicap of 20 giving you 2 strokes then yes, an 8 would seem to be a reasonable determination of your score for that hole.

But...given the state of how busy the WHS folks are, I'd be surprised if you got a definitive answer to your query from someone in an official enough situation to know exactly what happens when an old score is retrospectively added to a players record. Hell...I asked a question (one of many) about three weeks ago and got an answer today, quoting my original question, that was for a totally different problem.

My advice to you is, if the round doesn't count as one of your best 8 scores then the difference isn't going to have an effect on your handicap index and just dont worry about it....and even if the score does become part of your best 8 one day....then it is only going to have an effect of an additional 0.13 on your index.

Practise your carpet putting, make sure the clubs are clean, ready for the big escape from lockdown in December!!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scott W on Nov 17, 2020, 16:30:04
Practise your carpet putting, make sure the clubs are clean, ready for the big escape from lockdown in December!!  :chuckle:

Amen to that!
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Nov 17, 2020, 20:48:07
I had a "new member" welcome email from the SGU yesterday with a link to sign up for the app. Total cock-up.


Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: hotbaws on Nov 17, 2020, 21:53:43
I had a "new member" welcome email from the SGU yesterday with a link to sign up for the app. Total cock-up.


Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk
Kev, don’t get started on this whole cock up, I’m sick feed up trying to get my handicap sorted and now the SGU have just washed their hands of fixing their phuck up.

Btw I was maybe going to see the pro at Dullatur for a lesson as I heard he’s very good, have you any experience of him?


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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Nov 18, 2020, 09:45:24

Btw I was maybe going to see the pro at Dullatur for a lesson as I heard he’s very good, have you any experience of him?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gary.....I went to see Gregor a few weeks back - he's well worth the time and effort - felt it was a very good lesson - indoors though but with Trackman.... :thumbup1:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Nov 18, 2020, 15:30:46
Kev, don’t get started on this whole cock up, I’m sick feed up trying to get my handicap sorted and now the SGU have just washed their hands of fixing their phuck up.

Btw I was maybe going to see the pro at Dullatur for a lesson as I heard he’s very good, have you any experience of him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He seems to be doing well although I've not really spoken to him apart from hello. He's transformed the place, the trackman studio looks great and we've actually got a proper pro shop.

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: hotbaws on Nov 19, 2020, 20:39:03
Gary.....I went to see Gregor a few weeks back - he's well worth the time and effort - felt it was a very good lesson - indoors though but with Trackman.... :thumbup1:

That's good to hear as I'm in dire need of a lesson or 10, hope you're well. Need to catch up sometime soon, it's been too long
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: inoculator on Nov 20, 2020, 22:47:57
Gary.....I went to see Gregor a few weeks back - he's well worth the time and effort - felt it was a very good lesson - indoors though but with Trackman.... :thumbup1:
Good to hear G

I've been going to him for a couple of years & really like his attitude and personality which is a big plus in my book.

New setup is decent and there is a good practice area for the better weather.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Nov 21, 2020, 21:50:21
 :smug:
That's good to hear as I'm in dire need of a lesson or 10, hope you're well. Need to catch up sometime soon, it's been too long

Deffo big fella 👍👍
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Nov 21, 2020, 21:51:34
Good to hear G

I've been going to him for a couple of years & really like his attitude and personality which is a big plus in my book.

New setup is decent and there is a good practice area for the better weather.

Implementing is the hard part Ally. Hope you’re doing well. Still at the Tryst ?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 21, 2020, 23:00:23
That new app is handy when you visit other courses you don’t need the board
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Stanster on Nov 22, 2020, 14:36:46
That new app is handy when you visit other courses you don’t need the board

What app ?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Nov 22, 2020, 22:45:52
MyEG on the AppStore

Click on more then handicap calculator then course search
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: inoculator on Nov 23, 2020, 18:42:35
Implementing is the hard part Ally. Hope you’re doing well. Still at the Tryst ?
No gave it up and play vast majority of my golf at St Andrews now.

Still go to Tryst now and again for a game but not playing as much these days outside comps.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Nov 27, 2020, 01:01:36
MyEG on the AppStore

Click on more then handicap calculator then course search
The course look up button has just been added to my SGU app.
It gives all the information needed for the red yellow and white tees but also for a COMPOSITE 9 whatever that is, even more confusing is that it has a front & back 9.

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 27, 2020, 08:26:36
And most usefully, it tells you your course handicap for each set of tees at every Scottish course.  The 9 hole course information shouldn't really confuse.  The outward (front) nine and the inward (back) nine are each measured as a discrete course which means you can return competition or general play scores from either. 

At a guess, a "composite 9" is a course made up of a mixture of holes from each half.  For example, one of our Edinburgh clubs (I forget which) makes up a 9 hole course using holes 1 to 8 and then the 18th.  I'd need to check that as it really is a guess although, I hope, an educated one.
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Nov 27, 2020, 14:14:46
We've never had anything like that at our course.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201127/151dd952512bddff6ffca6cb5cbc6e69.jpg)

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Nov 27, 2020, 17:56:24
Wrong guess then.  :blush:

The R&A course look-up shows two Dullatur courses: Carrickstone and Carrickstone 9 hole Composite.  From the figures, your composite course is a 9 hole course which is rated for an 18 hole round, i.e. playing the 9 holes twice.    The clues are in the par, course rating and slope rating being  identical for the two 9s and  the 18 hole course rating being exactly twice those of the two nines.

Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Nov 27, 2020, 19:38:25
Looks like it's the Antonine course tbh. There was a trial 9 hole comp back in 2019, it could be something to do with that.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Cols_Ears on Dec 15, 2020, 09:48:46
Quick question for Colin or Nick - in foursomes matchplay do you:

a) take 50% of the combined Handicap Indexes, work out the course handicap for the combined total and then work out the strokes given; or
b) workout the course handicaps, take 50% of the combined, then work out the strokes given; or
c) does it not make any difference which way you do it?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Dec 15, 2020, 10:02:45
Quick question for Colin or Nick - in foursomes matchplay do you:

a) take 50% of the combined Handicap Indexes, work out the course handicap for the combined total and then work out the strokes given; or
b) workout the course handicaps, take 50% of the combined, then work out the strokes given; or
c) does it not make any difference which way you do it?

Handicap Allowances are always applied to the COURSE Handicap....so answer B.

Whether it makes any difference or not....it probably does as there will no doubt be some rounding errors that introduce subtle shifts if you used method A. I feel a spreadsheet coming on!!!
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Dec 15, 2020, 10:31:34
Handicap Allowances are always applied to the COURSE Handicap....so answer B.

Whether it makes any difference or not....it probably does as there will no doubt be some rounding errors that introduce subtle shifts if you used method A. I feel a spreadsheet coming on!!!

Yes it does make a difference.....i just created 100 matches with randomly generated handicap indexes and there was a difference in the strokes that were given in 38 instances....never more than 1 stroke.  The differences are caused by rounding occurring at different stages of the process.

Its the same for 4BBB matchplay....under the new rules players must calculate 90% of their course handicap to find their playing handicap and then the shots are worked out from the differences in the whole playing handicap numbers. The old way was to find the difference between handicaps first and then take 90% of that. Again, due to rounding there are instances where it makes a difference.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Cols_Ears on Dec 17, 2020, 10:16:23
Thanks Nick - I did try and find it in the guide but it didn't jump out at me...
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Dec 24, 2020, 09:14:05
I asked my MS to remove my multiple scores, he obliged. However they haven't been replaced by scores outside my previous last 20. ie I've now got my best 5 from my last 15 instead of 8 from 20.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scotty on Jan 07, 2021, 13:46:15
Nick - I appreciate your extensive knowledge on the topic... :thumbup1:

Do you have any insight on rounds that were previously non-counting being included in new hcap index?

For example, my club hosted a bogey comp in 2020 and on the day declared it was a non-counting event. Many players (myself included) returned a score, holing out on all 18 holes. Scores were recorded on our intelligent golf system.

Now that bogey comps etc can be returned for handicap purposes, should previous non-counting scores be added?

Thanks

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jan 07, 2021, 14:49:10
Nick - I appreciate your extensive knowledge on the topic... :thumbup1:

Do you have any insight on rounds that were previously non-counting being included in new hcap index?

For example, my club hosted a bogey comp in 2020 and on the day declared it was a non-counting event. Many players (myself included) returned a score, holing out on all 18 holes. Scores were recorded on our intelligent golf system.

Now that bogey comps etc can be returned for handicap purposes, should previous non-counting scores be added?

Thanks

Well firstly....bogey comps were previously allowed to be counting comps.

My view is that if a historical comp was declared non-counting in advance then this may have affected how players approached the game and that it should not be retrospectively included in a players record.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scotty on Jan 08, 2021, 15:54:47
Thanks, Nick. :hi:

However, that's your view - would England Golf agree? I was hoping WHS rules would cover this, rather than it being down to opinion or view.

I know of one club up north that had a whole batch of non-counting rounds (declared non-counting before play due to course conditions) added to their members WHS records.

Just seems a bit vague...

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jan 08, 2021, 17:45:02
Thanks, Nick. :hi:

However, that's your view - would England Golf agree? I was hoping WHS rules would cover this, rather than it being down to opinion or view.

I know of one club up north that had a whole batch of non-counting rounds (declared non-counting before play due to course conditions) added to their members WHS records.

Just seems a bit vague...

There are no rules in the WHS manual that specifically allow historical "non-counting" competitions to be revised and classed as "counting" competitions. However to be fair....there are no rules that specifically forbid such a change in "status" either. So the rules don't help you with the clarity you are looking for I'm afraid.  :chuckle:

CONGU (as it was) had specific rules in place that determined whether a competition was played under proper competition conditions (length of course, preferred lies through the green (i.e. not just on fairways), number of bunkers in play, number of temporary greens, being just some of the factors that would affect "qualifying" status) and therefore whether a score should qualify for handicapping purposes.

My personal opinion is that to retrospectively make them qualifiers when potentially the course was not "fit to hold a qualifying competition" is a fundamental perversion of the ethics of the handicapping system and should not be allowed.

Obviously I do not know if there were specific circumstances that the "club up North" felt justified changing the status....it may well have been a special case where they had a significant period(s) of inclement weather that rendered a number of rounds as non-qualifying and with the implementation of the WHS has meant that the majority of members had very few counting scores in their handicap records. By changing the status they were able to "flesh out their players records" and make them more "meaningful".

That's the only potential justification I can think of (and even then I'm not totally comfortable with it!!). For most clubs across the land I would envisage that since Jan 2018 (scores prior to this are not included in the WHS) they'd have held dozens of qualifying competitions and losing a small handful as non-qualifiers would have had a negligible impact on players abilities to submit scores for handicap...so there should be no reason to revisit comps and change them to qualifiers.



Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scotty on Jan 08, 2021, 19:04:19

Obviously I do not know if there were specific circumstances that the "club up North" felt justified changing the status....it may well have been a special case where they had a significant period(s) of inclement weather that rendered a number of rounds as non-qualifying and with the implementation of the WHS has meant that the majority of members had very few counting scores in their handicap records. By changing the status they were able to "flesh out their players records" and make them more "meaningful".

They had some course work going on, lots of noise and a few bunkers out of action for that period. It was deemed unfair if players handicaps went up, so non-counting. I forgot to mention it was reduction only so even though pre-WHS they were non-counting, players would have still been cut. Personally, I think they got that rule mixed up too - as far as I knew the CONGU rule changed to ensure non-counters were exactly that for up or down revisions.

Post WHS they've allowed the reduction scores into player records, which to me is the same as adding previously non-counting rounds to player records, hence why I thought it should be allowed at our place.

Reason I'm interested - one of the players at that club shot a 10 under round of 60 playing off +2 and his new WHS index is +1 with that score on his record. He'd go up to a 1 handicap if the score isn't allowed and miss out on some national events (West of Ireland, some English strokeplay events and perhaps a few of the early season Scottish events) this year with an index that's too high.

Anyway, seems we won't get an outcome to that one but thought I'd ask your thoughts. Not met many that have your level of understanding of the system.

On another note, have you heard much about the course rating criteria being changed or changing? We had our place rated at 70.9 (Par 71) and it's lined with heather. Apparently when it was rated the criteria didn't allow for what was wide of the fairways (heather, rough, concrete, heavy rough etc), just how wide the fairways were, length, hazards and carry. There are a couple of much shorter (and easier) courses with less heather rated one or two strokes higher than our place and I reckon they've made a mistake or the other places were rated after some kind of criteria change and our place was done before....
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jan 08, 2021, 21:58:20


On another note, have you heard much about the course rating criteria being changed or changing? We had our place rated at 70.9 (Par 71) and it's lined with heather. Apparently when it was rated the criteria didn't allow for what was wide of the fairways (heather, rough, concrete, heavy rough etc), just how wide the fairways were, length, hazards and carry. There are a couple of much shorter (and easier) courses with less heather rated one or two strokes higher than our place and I reckon they've made a mistake or the other places were rated after some kind of criteria change and our place was done before....

Course rating should have taken into account the proximity of hazards and deep rough to the fairway in typical landing areas...knowing what heather is like to play out of I would be surprised if it wasn't taken into consideration when rating the course. The rating system as I understand it has not changed under the WHS and we have been using the same system as the US for many years now. I've not heard of any recent changes nor any proposed changes.

What courses are you reckoning are easier?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scotty on Jan 09, 2021, 18:55:12
The best comparison I can give you is East Berkshire, rated at 70.8 (Par 69) so 1.8 over par for white tees. It's shorter and easier by an absolute mile than our white tees. Our place is longer, has more heather and more difficult and rated at 70.9 (par 71) so 0.1 under par.

Effingham black course (not even a heathland) measures up similarly to our white course - it's rated at 72.9 (Par 71) so 1.9 over par.

Walton Heath Old white, again similar to our place and a bit easier IMO comes in at 72.7 (Par 72) so 0.7 over par.

I actually can't find any heathland courses at normal length in England with a level par course rating...
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scotty on Jan 09, 2021, 19:01:43
Course rating should have taken into account the proximity of hazards and deep rough to the fairway in typical landing areas...knowing what heather is like to play out of I would be surprised if it wasn't taken into consideration when rating the course

The team that rated our course told our club there is no allowance in the rating criteria to differentiate between heather, deep rough, concrete, short rough, left or right of landing zones. As far as the criteria goes, its the fairway width and not what is wide of the fairway that counts, apparently!

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jan 10, 2021, 11:07:20
The best comparison I can give you is East Berkshire, rated at 70.8 (Par 69) so 1.8 over par for white tees. It's shorter and easier by an absolute mile than our white tees. Our place is longer, has more heather and more difficult and rated at 70.9 (par 71) so 0.1 under par.

Effingham black course (not even a heathland) measures up similarly to our white course - it's rated at 72.9 (Par 71) so 1.9 over par.

Walton Heath Old white, again similar to our place and a bit easier IMO comes in at 72.7 (Par 72) so 0.7 over par.

I actually can't find any heathland courses at normal length in England with a level par course rating...


Comparing course rating against par is not relevant....the two have no relation to each other. You could have a course consisting of 18 x 420yd par 4 holes giving a course length of 7560yds but still only a par 72.....this, due to the nature of its length (which it is true to say has the overriding contribution to Course rating) would have a much higher course rating than another par 72 course of say only 6000 yards.

I dont quite get your comparisons....according to the the course rating database the RAC Old Course white tees have a rating of 73 and a slope of 135, I believe the course yardage is 6695yds. The Coronation Course has a rating of 70.4 and a slope of 128 and a yardage of 6177.

East Berkshire CR 70.8 Slope 125, yardage is 6240 yds
Effingham Black CR 72.9 Slope 131, yardage is 6800 yds
Walton Heath Old CR72.7 Slope 131, yardage is 6786 yds

Your Old Course CR of 73 is very similar to those of Effingham and WH and the yardages are in the same ballpark, East Berks is much shorter and this is reflected in the CR which is similar to the Coronation Course rating. Really dont see where your issue arises....unless it was die to comparing CR with Par, which I've allready said is just not a relevant comparison.

As for the rating team saying that they don't consider what is wide of the fairway - they are not correct.

Recoverability from rough (which is dependent on the depth, thickness etc) is a key component of the rating process, as are the presence of out of bound areas and obstacles close to the landing area (water hazards, bunkers, extreme rough, trees, mounds, swales and hollows just a few examples). Sidehill/uphill/downhill lies are all included in the assessment as is an assessment of the "true playing length" which will be affected by shot elevation, roll, doglegs, forced lay-ups.

Here is a snippet from a US (for the system we use for rating courses comes from the US...its not a British system) website describing the course rating process at a high level...

There are five playing-length factors that are considered for each hole: roll, elevation, wind, dogleg/forced lay-ups, and altitude. Between these five factors, or a combination of them, the overall playing length of a golf course is either lengthened or shortened from the physical yardage of a golf course.

In addition to the effective playing length of a course, there are 10 obstacles that are evaluated on each hole (nine of the obstacles are physical and one psychological). The nine obstacles are as follows: topography, fairway, green target, rough and recoverability, bunkers, out-of-bounds/extreme rough, water, trees, and green surface. If that weren’t enough, the hole is given an extra boost of difficulty under the obstacle of psychology if the rating numbers determine that the hole plays more difficult.

Each obstacle is given a numerical value ranging from zero to 10 (zero being non-existent, 10 being extreme). To avoid subjectivity, the values assigned are taken from a table in the USGA Course Rating Guide. These values are based off of the distances the obstacle is from the center of the landing zone or target.

For example: assuming there are no effective playing length corrections, the team of course raters would first evaluate the landing area for the bogey golfer 200 yards off the tee. In this area, the team would measure the width of the fairway, the distance from the center of the fairway to the nearest boundary line, trees, hazard line, and whether there are any bunkers nearby. The same procedure would be done for the scratch player’s landing area 250 yards off the tee. This evaluation process is repeated until the group reaches the green. The green width and depth are then measured as well as the amount of water and/or bunkers surrounding the green as well as how far it is to the nearest boundary line.

This process is repeated on every hole and for every tee. Through this data, a scratch and bogey rating are achieved. We are then able to use these two numbers to calculate the slope number.


The full rating manual is available here... http://www.scga.org/pdfs/volunteers/10125/2016-17_usga_course_rating_system_manual.pdf (http://www.scga.org/pdfs/volunteers/10125/2016-17_usga_course_rating_system_manual.pdf)


Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scotty on Jan 10, 2021, 20:43:14
Thanks for that, some good info there and a healthy source to point our club to.

A minor point but the rating to par is very relevant. As a scratch golfer, I can assure you its easier to shoot a level round of 69 at East Berks at 6240 than it is to shoot level 71 at Hankley at 6500 yards. If I average level at East Berks my WHS index is +2. The same at Hankley would make me 0.

The point here is maintaining a handicap lower than +1 for national comps is far easier at East Berks than it is at Hankley, unless they change the rating to something more reflective of its actual difficulty

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Colin L on Jan 10, 2021, 23:37:13
I think you are misrepresenting this.  The two courses you mention  are close in difficulty as shown by their course ratings. :  East Berks is  70.8 and Hankley Common  is 70.9. These are the scores expected of a scratch golfer in normal conditions - the scores expected of you. As you have indicated, if you score 69 at East Berks you have played almost 2 strokes below your handicap; score 71 at Hankley and you have played virtually to handicap.  If you are in the habit of scoring like that on these courses, there will be reasons no doubt why you regularly play better on the one than other but  the pars of the courses tell us nothing because par is too variable. Here you have a 2 stroke difference in par between two courses of virtually equal difficulty.  One of those strokes could be the outcome of East Berks deciding to make a 250 yard hole a par 3 whereas Hankley makes a hole of the same length a par 4.  The other could be because East Berks chooses to make a 480 yard hole a par 4 while Hankley has a 480 yard par 5.  The two courses are also very close in difficulty for a bogey golfer like me. The bogey rating of East Berks is 94.1 and of Hankley, 94.3.

Scoring level par on a particular course does not necessarily mean you have played to handicap.  To be precise, level par means you  have played to handicap only if par is the same as the course rating.  Comparing scores on the same course in terms of under, over or level par is fine.    Comparing scores on different courses in terms of par doesn't work.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Scotty on Jan 10, 2021, 23:49:17
The two you mention  are close in difficulty as shown by their course ratings. :  East Berks is  70.8 and Hankley Common  is 70.9. These are the scores expected of a scratch golfer in normal conditions

I average about 67 or 68 round East Berks. I couldn't average 71 round Hankley if you paid me. 






Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jan 13, 2021, 16:07:09
We will have all forgotten about WHS by the time we get back playing
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jan 13, 2021, 17:25:03
We will have all forgotten about WHS by the time we get back playing

must admit....it has been nice not having to fend off members queries!!!!!
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Apr 24, 2021, 13:05:42
Query re how many stokes you can reduce your handicap by in a season. I've been told you can only reduced your index by 3 max in the one season. I'm at the point where I've came down by 2.8, today's score looks possibly like knocking off another 0.4. Would it just freeze it at the 3?

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Apr 24, 2021, 13:14:25
Query re how many stokes you can reduce your handicap by in a season. I've been told you can only reduced your index by 3 max in the one season. I'm at the point where I've came down by 2.8, today's score looks possibly like knocking off another 0.4. Would it just freeze it at the 3?

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You have been misinformed. There is no downward limit.
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Apr 24, 2021, 13:18:04
Cheers Nick.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jun 06, 2021, 22:33:43
Last few winning comps have been won by 20+ handicappers

The last one was 47 points. Guy off 5 who played with me shot 40 points and came 20th. I can see over time that scores would level off but as soon as a higher handicapper joins they will walk the competition. A lot of the single figure players only play medals now.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Jun 07, 2021, 09:16:13
You have been misinformed. There is no downward limit.
After a quite amazing purple patch I have came down 4.6 in total, 11.6 to 7.0. I'm now in a situation where scores 14-20 are all counting, some seriously good scores are about to drop off and I'm playing like a donkey. Unless I can find some form I've got for example a 3.1 about to be replaced by a 10.6 and a 6.2 being replaced by a 13.4. The rest are around 3 higher too.
Is the upper limit 3 from where I'm at just now or from where I started at the beginning of the season?

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jun 07, 2021, 09:46:21
After a quite amazing purple patch I have came down 4.6 in total, 11.6 to 7.0. I'm now in a situation where scores 14-20 are all counting, some seriously good scores are about to drop off and I'm playing like a donkey. Unless I can find some form I've got for example a 3.1 about to be replaced by a 10.6 and a 6.2 being replaced by a 13.4. The rest are around 3 higher too.
Is the upper limit 3 from where I'm at just now or from where I started at the beginning of the season?

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The "upper limit" or "cap" is based on your "low handicap index" which is the lowest index you have held in the previous rolling 365 days.

The "cap" is triggered in 2 stages...

(i) The soft cap. The soft cap is triggered when the difference between a player’s
newly calculated Handicap Index and their Low Handicap Index is greater than
3.0 strokes.

When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the
value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase.

(ii) The hard cap. The hard cap triggers to restrict the amount by which a
player’s Handicap Index can increase, after application of the soft cap, to no
more than 5.0 strokes above their Low Handicap Index.

So...if your index rises more than 3 strokes from the low handicap index, any future increases in handicap index will be restricted to half of what they would be....so if a round meant that your index would rise by another 0.8 strokes then it would be limited to a 0.4 stroke increase.

Once you get to 5 shots higher than the low index, your handicap index is prevented from rising at all.

Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Jun 07, 2021, 10:03:42
Cheers Nick. Hopefully the form will return and it'll not be an issue.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jun 07, 2021, 10:25:28
The opposite to you, when we got back to playing at the end of March, all of my best 8 had been shot in my 11 most recent rounds at the end of 2020.....so I had 9 rounds where....no matter how badly I played, my handicap index wasn't going anywhere in an upward direction.

5 competition rounds so far and until yesterday they'd all been in the high 80's or low 90's so my best 8 have got older and older....4 more rounds and I will have 5 consecutive rounds that are part of my best 8 will start dropping off.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: 3puttwizard on Jun 07, 2021, 20:45:14
Last few winning comps have been won by 20+ handicappers

The last one was 47 points. Guy off 5 who played with me shot 40 points and came 20th. I can see over time that scores would level off but as soon as a higher handicapper joins they will walk the competition. A lot of the single figure players only play medals now.

And another one. Board comp, 160 people playing big pot of cash.

A long time member was playing with a new member playing off 23 who scored a net 60.  He told them he played mostly in Spain where he played off 11.

Brazen bloody banditry



Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jun 08, 2021, 09:23:18
And another one. Board comp, 160 people playing big pot of cash.

A long time member was playing with a new member playing off 23 who scored a net 60.  He told them he played mostly in Spain where he played off 11.

Brazen bloody banditry

or simply a failure of your local Handicapping Sec to take into account the players old handicap when allocating a new one (assuming the player told him of his playing history that is).
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: sally on Jun 08, 2021, 11:42:47
or simply a failure of your local Handicapping Sec to take into account the players old handicap when allocating a new one (assuming the player told him of his playing history that is).

Seems to be a common problem we have had a lot of new members join from another club and they have all been given completely new handicaps and like at Robins club alot are in the 20+ hcp range and are winning pretty much everything.  One of our most prestigous comps was a few weeks back a 36 hole medal was won at net 12 under par.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Jun 08, 2021, 14:52:53
...a good mate of mines who, for a variety of reasons, had let his last handicap lapse at least a couple of years back ( I'm going to say it was 6 or 7 around three years ago- but possibly even longer than that ? ) ....has in the last two weeks submitted three cards off the medal tees at Dunbar.....played under relatively benign scoring conditions each day ( not that it helped me mind you.... :picard: ) . So off the whites we are 6597 yards, Par 71, Course Rating 70 and Slope of 113.
In the order played in the last two weekends, my mate shoots ( gross ) 84 ( +13 ) , 74 ( +3 ) and another 74 ( +3) - so, without insulting your arithmetical prowess....a combined nineteen over par. He wanted a quick turnaround as we are entered in an open Texas Scramble this weekend and he needed to get his bloody finger out.  Now , I know a wee bit more about this WHS than I did a few months back but still not really getting it as I find some people's handicaps are utterly astonishing ......but based on these three scores, as mentioned, a combined 19 over, just this lunchtime he received notification that Dunbar have given him a lovely vanity handicap of +0.5. :no: :no: So the rules of the W.H.S. ( presumably ? ) have decreed he is just 0.1 from a plus 1 handicap.......Hmm......I'm sure there's logic in that somewhere...... :scared:
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jun 08, 2021, 21:00:53
...a good mate of mines who, for a variety of reasons, had let his last handicap lapse at least a couple of years back ( I'm going to say it was 6 or 7 around three years ago- but possibly even longer than that ? ) ....has in the last two weeks submitted three cards off the medal tees at Dunbar.....played under relatively benign scoring conditions each day ( not that it helped me mind you.... :picard: ) . So off the whites we are 6597 yards, Par 71, Course Rating 70 and Slope of 113.
In the order played in the last two weekends, my mate shoots ( gross ) 84 ( +13 ) , 74 ( +3 ) and another 74 ( +3) - so, without insulting your arithmetical prowess....a combined nineteen over par. He wanted a quick turnaround as we are entered in an open Texas Scramble this weekend and he needed to get his bloody finger out.  Now , I know a wee bit more about this WHS than I did a few months back but still not really getting it as I find some people's handicaps are utterly astonishing ......but based on these three scores, as mentioned, a combined 19 over, just this lunchtime he received notification that Dunbar have given him a lovely vanity handicap of +0.5. :no: :no: So the rules of the W.H.S. ( presumably ? ) have decreed he is just 0.1 from a plus 1 handicap.......Hmm......I'm sure there's logic in that somewhere...... :scared:

You sure about the quoted Course Rating and Slope? The National Course Rating DB https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=22611 has Dunbars white tees as Par 71, CR 72.3 and Slope 128.

By my calcs I'd expect his best nett differential to be (74-72.3)/128*113 = 1.5

with just 3 scores in his record his initial index is based on his best differential, minus 2 strokes which would give him an index of plus 0.5

Doesnt matter what his combined nett score is....the system at this early stage is only interested in his best score....and given that he's shot 74 twice I'm not sure what he really was expecting/wanting  :chuckle: He's obviously a good golfer.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: YOOFALLMAN on Jun 08, 2021, 22:10:29
Nick, thanks for the explanation - really appreciated and most certainly aids my understanding a bit more    :yes:
I dunno where I got the course rating and slope numbers from ? A momentary brain  fart I think  :sad:

I think Andy, my mate  just feels it’s a handicap that he will not really have a realistic chance of playing to - and that is his 100% honest assessment.  :eyebrow:
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: hotbaws on Jun 09, 2021, 01:01:04
Nick with the soft and hard limit up now apply to Graham’s mate currently off his 0.5 HC?

I’m asking as the SHU made a balls up of my data import and it ended with me getting a HC of 1.0, after a manual adjustment by my local club HC sec to 2.3 I’ve put in general play scores ever time I’ve played and I’m not 3.7 which is probably still not accurate. I was 3.3 before the change over but playing horrendous and getting lessons in an effort to not wanting to put my clubs through the chop saw so they’ll fit in the wheelie bin.


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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jun 09, 2021, 10:55:34
Nick with the soft and hard limit up now apply to Graham’s mate currently off his 0.5 HC?

I’m asking as the SHU made a balls up of my data import and it ended with me getting a HC of 1.0, after a manual adjustment by my local club HC sec to 2.3 I’ve put in general play scores ever time I’ve played and I’m not 3.7 which is probably still not accurate. I was 3.3 before the change over but playing horrendous and getting lessons in an effort to not wanting to put my clubs through the chop saw so they’ll fit in the wheelie bin.



No.

The simple reason being that with so few scores in a players record when they first start out a players index is likely to be highly volatile.

Low Handicap Indexes are not set/established until a player has 20 scores on their record.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Jun 09, 2021, 11:00:26
Nick, thanks for the explanation - really appreciated and most certainly aids my understanding a bit more    :yes:
I dunno where I got the course rating and slope numbers from ? A momentary brain  fart I think  :sad:

I think Andy, my mate  just feels it’s a handicap that he will not really have a realistic chance of playing to - and that is his 100% honest assessment.  :eyebrow:

If his 4th score is worse than either of the 74's then his index will immediately rise by 1 stroke.....when a player has 4 scores in their record the index is based on the best score minus ONE stroke.

Should his 5th round be worse than 74 then he will go up another stroke (index based on best score).

However  :D if his 6th round is worse again then his index will go back DOWN by a stroke because it will be based on the average of his BEST TWO scores minus one stroke....unfortunately he has 2 74's in his record!!!
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Aug 27, 2021, 23:44:10
Query on a competition handicap.
Index 8.7 Playing Handicap 10
The competition is 95% so would be 9.5 which would be playing off 10.
I'm only showing as a 9 on the draw sheet, I was the same at an Open comp last week.
Any ideas?

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Aug 28, 2021, 08:11:14
Kev

In Scotland to get to Playing handicap the actual (to x decimal places) course handicap is used and then when 95% calculation done the playing handicap is then rounded

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Aug 28, 2021, 09:37:24
DiS is correct.

Depending on the slope rating of your course your exact unrounded Course Handicap could well be anywhere between 9.5 and 9.9 which in England, Ireland and Wales would mean a rounded Course Handicap of 10 and then 95% of that is 9.5 which still gives you 10 as a competition handicap.

Scotland do things differently and calculate the Course Handicap to 1 decimal place before applying the 95% allowance.

Believe it or not, Scotland, by taking the UNROUNDED Course Handicap are following the rules of the WHS exactly....so a CH of 9.9 gives a competition handicap of 9.4 (when taking the 95%) which then rounds down to the 9 you are seeing.

Now you know this, you may well ask "what the hell then is the point of the conversion boards (that many clubs have by the first tee or close to the clubhouse) that tell you what your Course Handicap is depending on your Playing Handicap" (which show the CH rounded to an integer).....and you would be perfectly within your rights to ask this question!!!
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Aug 28, 2021, 23:03:18
Cheers guys. I've had a look at the conversion chart and 8.7 is at the very low end of making 10 so definitely is as you explain it.

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Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Apr 20, 2022, 10:36:56
I'm looking for some information on the adjusted gross part of the WHS.
Rubbish round yesterday, 80 gross adjusted to 79. I had 1 double bogey, a 7 on a oar 5 index 17 so no shot. I'm not sure why this would have been adjusted down. Bit pissed as it got me cut a full shot on my playing handicap and I've got a tie tomorrow.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Apr 20, 2022, 13:56:29
I'm looking for some information on the adjusted gross part of the WHS.
Rubbish round yesterday, 80 gross adjusted to 79. I had 1 double bogey, a 7 on a oar 5 index 17 so no shot. I'm not sure why this would have been adjusted down. Bit pissed as it got me cut a full shot on my playing handicap and I've got a tie tomorrow.

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On the face of it a nett double bogey should not have been adjusted.

If you can somehow post an image of your card/score on a hole by hole basis...perhaps a screenshot of where you are seeing the adjustment....I might be able to assist further.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Apr 20, 2022, 15:15:25
SGU first.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Apr 20, 2022, 15:16:48
HDID next, double on 18 too but I stroke on that hole so net 5.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Apr 20, 2022, 16:30:23
Sorry mate....nothing there gives any clues....was hoping the Scottish Golf app might show where the adjustment actually occurred....does it give any more hole by hole detail or just the summary shown?

Just a thought....do you have any examples on the SGU app where you HAVE had hole adjustments that you recognise as being correct? Any chnace of posting a screenshot of what the SGU app displays for that round (the summary...like you have posted above).



Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Apr 20, 2022, 16:45:57
None I can think of Nick without going through my complete, I'm usually fairly steady and don't throw in any triples or worse, unusual to have more than 1 double. I'll message my MS and ask him to take a look.
Cheers.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Apr 20, 2022, 17:58:33
Probably best.....the only thing I can think of is that there may have been a PCC adjustment which has been factored in to the Adjusted Gross score.

The thing against that theory though is that I am assuming the Adjustments (Adj/ExS/PCC) 0/0/0 is supposed to be a summary of all adjustments....and all the figures are zero.....mind you...that's not to say there might be an issue with the App that means these figures aren't displayed correctly!!!!....which is why I was asking for an example of a score where a known correct adjustment did happen.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Apr 21, 2022, 08:43:33
Keve - you haven’t told us your COURSE handicap - this will show how many shots you received for the nett double bogey hole - this may be different from your Playing handicap.
The stroke indexes and pars will also be needed
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Apr 21, 2022, 09:33:05
Keve - you haven’t told us your COURSE handicap - this will show how many shots you received for the nett double bogey hole - this may be different from your Playing handicap.
The stroke indexes and pars will also be needed

Dick....the nett double bogey hole is Par 5 SI 17. The screenshots show his PH as being 10....his CH therefore cannot be any more than 11.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Apr 21, 2022, 16:03:29
What about par and SI of 18 ?
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Apr 21, 2022, 17:11:29
What about par and SI of 18 ?

Par 4 SI 8....so again not affected by any potential difference in CH/PH
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Cols_Ears on Aug 15, 2022, 15:56:55
Nick - I have a question for you as our WHS Guru:

How is the individual round Score Differential actually calculated, as despite having a university degree in engineering I'll be buggered if I can work it out...

So yesterday I shot a 73, I have a WHS Index of 4.1, I played at Tidworth Garrison GC, white tees ( Course rating 71.5 / Slope 130) giving me a course handicap of 5.
According the the EGU MyGolf app this gives me a Score differential of 1.3 (PCC was zero, as it has been since they introduced the WHS at our place).

How do you calculate the 1.3??

Other random scores are with SD after the / and HCap in brackets - all on the same course / tees and zero PCC:

77 / 4.8 (4.6)
87 / 13.5 (4.4)
81 / 8.3 (4.1)
74 / 2.2 (4.7)
73 / 1.3 (6.0) - this is the one I don't understand - how can this score when played off a higher WHS Index and course handicap give the same score differential as the 73 I posted yesterday?

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Aug 15, 2022, 17:44:17
Nick - I have a question for you as our WHS Guru:

How is the individual round Score Differential actually calculated, as despite having a university degree in engineering I'll be buggered if I can work it out...

So yesterday I shot a 73, I have a WHS Index of 4.1, I played at Tidworth Garrison GC, white tees ( Course rating 71.5 / Slope 130) giving me a course handicap of 5.
According the the EGU MyGolf app this gives me a Score differential of 1.3 (PCC was zero, as it has been since they introduced the WHS at our place).

How do you calculate the 1.3??

Other random scores are with SD after the / and HCap in brackets - all on the same course / tees and zero PCC:

77 / 4.8 (4.6)
87 / 13.5 (4.4)
81 / 8.3 (4.1)
74 / 2.2 (4.7)
73 / 1.3 (6.0) - this is the one I don't understand - how can this score when played off a higher WHS Index and course handicap give the same score differential as the 73 I posted yesterday?

Ok....so first of all....your existing/current WHS index or course handicap plays no part whatsoever in the calculation of your score differential.

The score differential is purely a function of your score, compared with Course Rating and then normalised to a course with a Slope rating of 113.

Score Differential =(113/slope rating)*(adjusted gross score - course rating - pcc)

So in your case Score Differential = (113/130)*(73-71.5-0)

which you will find is your 1.3
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Cols_Ears on Aug 16, 2022, 09:54:28
Ok....so first of all....your existing/current WHS index or course handicap plays no part whatsoever in the calculation of your score differential.

The score differential is purely a function of your score, compared with Course Rating and then normalised to a course with a Slope rating of 113.

Score Differential =(113/slope rating)*(adjusted gross score - course rating - pcc)

So in your case Score Differential = (113/130)*(73-71.5-0)

which you will find is your 1.3
Thank Nick - much appreciated.
Title: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Keve on Aug 16, 2022, 15:44:58
I just accept now that the differential is what it is but last weeks at the Downfield open made me scratch my head.
I had a shocker of a round, scoring 2 7's an 8 and a 9 for 88, gross adjusted to 85 on a par 73 course. In my, and everyone else's defense, the course had been set up the day before for some international boy/girls event with flags perched on ridges and the greens running like putting on car bonnets.
I woke up at 3.30am for my usual pee and was stunned to see the differential was 8.1 and I had been cut by 0.6.
The winning score in Div 1 was 74, 1 over net so very tough.

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Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Aug 16, 2022, 18:49:48
I just accept now that the differential is what it is but last weeks at the Downfield open made me scratch my head.
I had a shocker of a round, scoring 2 7's an 8 and a 9 for 88, gross adjusted to 85 on a par 73 course. In my, and everyone else's defense, the course had been set up the day before for some international boy/girls event with flags perched on ridges and the greens running like putting on car bonnets.
I woke up at 3.30am for my usual pee and was stunned to see the differential was 8.1 and I had been cut by 0.6.
The winning score in Div 1 was 74, 1 over net so very tough.

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Assuming I've got the right course (Slope 133 CR 73.5), this would indicate to me that there was a Course Condition Adjustment of 2 for the scores for the day.

So (85-73.5-2)*(113/133) will give you 8.1 (after rounding)
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: braehead on Nov 20, 2022, 22:25:27
It might be in this thread somewhere already but how does WHS work during winter with mats, preferred lies, temp greens etc?  I've had a few good general play games recently but not put cards in because of the occasional temp green etc. Should I just be putting them in anyway? From next month we move to fairway mats too but we're getting to the period where we're lucky to have enough daylight to play anyway 😳
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Nov 21, 2022, 08:14:40
Most - if not all- courses in NE Scotland have no measured course for the winter period due to forward tees ,mats to be used in first cut, winter bunker rules etc etc not to mention being on winter greens too.

You’d need to check with your club if the ‘winter’ course has been ‘rated’
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Blofeld on Nov 21, 2022, 09:53:13
It might be in this thread somewhere already but how does WHS work during winter with mats, preferred lies, temp greens etc?  I've had a few good general play games recently but not put cards in because of the occasional temp green etc. Should I just be putting them in anyway? From next month we move to fairway mats too but we're getting to the period where we're lucky to have enough daylight to play anyway 😳

Assuming that the course still is within 100yds of its measured playing length then the following applies in England (Scotland may do things differently as the authority to decide what counts as a handicap qualifying round lies with the Authorised Association...so England Golf, Scottish Golf Union etc)...

Mats (tees and fairway mats)
Acceptable Scores may be returned in Competitions and in General Play when there is a Local Rule in place requiring the compulsory use of fairway mats to protect the natural surfaces of the course, during the referred lies period.

Suggested wording for local rule - ‘When a player’s ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less and a putter is not being used for the stroke, the ball must be lifted, placed on and played from an Astroturf, or similar type, of mat. The mat must be placed as near as possible to where the ball originally lay, and the ball must be placed on the mat. The ball may be cleaned when lifted.’

Temporary Greens
For scores to be acceptable, no more than 2 temporary greens are allowed to be used. For a 9-hole course, only one temporary green will be allowed. Whilst temporary or alternative greens are acceptable for handicapping purposes, whenever the length of the course length has been increased or decreased by more than 100 yards for an 18-hole round or 50 yards for a 9-hole round, the adjustments to the Course Rating and Slope Rating set out in Appendix G of the Rules of Handicapping must be applied.

Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: braehead on Nov 21, 2022, 13:43:52
That's great - thanks very much.  I'd have been fine to put a score in today in that case as the Eden was ok.  But Ladybank had 4 temp greens the other day so that would have been a no. 

My winter golf is generally bounce games where none of the group want to hole out or put cards in but I'm quite keen to put a card in for all (well, most) of my games.  Good to know the above info.
Title: Re: World Handicapping Scheme Education Discussion
Post by: Dick in Shorts on Nov 21, 2022, 17:29:24
You should be able to check with the club or professional shop at the course you are playing before you commence your round. Last winter I was at Murcar and it’s usually all full summer greens - having checked in the pro shop I discovered there were 4 winter greens at the far end of the course (due to maintenance) that would have been unknown if I hadn’t asked!