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Offline SkankyShanky

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LPGA result
« on: Apr 03, 2017, 08:44:24 »
I'm not that interested in pro golf , and I know it's happened before that players have been penalized when someone spots something on TV, but this ruling seems a bit harsh to me:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/39476590

I even feel a bit sorry for the winner.
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Offline Chip_Unsure

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #1 on: Apr 03, 2017, 09:30:38 »
Only read a little on this on social media, but extremely dodgy. 

Sport should not be interactive for people sitting at home.  The idea of being able to pick up the phone and change the course of an event is just wrong and surely has implications with gambling also.

I think this should definitely be changed, but IF you allow this to happen I don't think you can then double up the penalty for making the mistake.... a mistake that did not give any advantage from what I could see from the video.

Edit - even worse, just read more and hadn't realised the "infringement" was in the 3rd round.  My stance is exactly the same as above, but surely... SURELY... if you are going to have a dumb rule, it can only be valid on the day of the round.  Otherwise you get people scrutinising players in order to change the results of tournaments.
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Offline 3puttwizard

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #2 on: Apr 03, 2017, 10:50:20 »
So she marked it to the side then replaced the ball in front of the marker...so she's moved the ball closer to the hole....

Don't agree with people mailing in but she did break the rules and should know better. Send her round Blofelds for some training in the rules and other activities...


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Offline Chip_Unsure

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #3 on: Apr 03, 2017, 11:06:47 »
Have you see the footage on this? 

To me there was no advantage sought or gained, the remarking of the ball was a fractionally different position that needs close up footage to confirm, we are talking mm's.  It's also not even clear if it was closer to the hole.

I genuinely think that this happens regularly in all forms of golf - all she was doing was lining her ball up for the tap in.

A good point made on WRX is that you are only penalising players that get good TV coverage but scrutinising every tiny thing they do.

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Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #4 on: Apr 03, 2017, 11:12:14 »
I'm a bit torn on this one. 

Firstly, I think that the rules have been applied 100% correctly in this situation as per the current rulebook.  When I first heard about the penalty I assumed that she must have marked her ball to the side (possibly because it was close to being on her playing partners line) and then forgotten to replace it correctly.  Those mistakes happen, especially when there can be up to a minute between marking and replacing.  However, when you watch the video she marks and replaces the ball when it is her turn to putt and in one continuous motion, so there is no 'forgetting' happening, and it looks very clumsy (50 seconds into video below):

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/apr/02/lexi-thompson-four-stroke-penalty-tv-viewer

I think that has to be called a penalty once it was noticed, as the ball was replaced in the wrong spot.  Whether she did it intentionally or by accident doesn't really matter.  Also, as the rules currently stand a penalty can be applied retrospectively as long as the competition is still running, so even though it happened during a previous round it still has to be applied.  She was actually saved from disqualification from the rule brought in recently to cover this very occurrence, as before that rule she would have had to have been disqualified for signing for a wrong score.

However, having said all that, this does once again make golf look like a bit of a joke to the outside world in terms of the rules.  I think that we have to allow 'trial by TV' personally as at the end of the day we want the correct winner of an event, and if someone breaks a rule along the way then that has to be reflected in their score.  In this instance, she would have made that 12 inch putt regardless of where she put the ball down, so it looks stupid and petty to penalise someone for moving the ball 1cm or 2cm.  But what if that 1cm or 2cm would take a nasty spike mark out of her line and allow her to make a putt that she otherwise might have missed?  The rules have to cover for every eventuality, even if sometimes they look stupid for doing so.

The other issue that we also possibly face is that I'm guessing that if you went through last season's PGA Tour TV footage with a fine tooth comb you'd find dozens and dozens of examples of players replacing their ball incorrectly.  Maybe only by half a cm or so, but it must happen, so is it fair to punish some players but not others?  Again, this places more burden on the top players and leaders of a tournament who get much more TV airtime.

Finally I guess that there is a case for either closing off the scores for a round once the next round starts (so in this instance it would have been too late to apply the penalty), or remove the penalty for signing for a wrong scorecard completely.  But both of those also have their disadvantages, and people would be crying foul if someone broke a rule and ended up winning a tournament due to a penalty not being applied.

Offline inoculator

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #5 on: Apr 03, 2017, 11:15:41 »
Does indeed seem harsh and hopefully an end will be put to this crap soon.

As to the gaining no advantage and i am in no way saying it is the fact in this case but could it be the ball was sitting in a spike mark or some not so good spot and afraid it might jump a bit at impact?

Was this not what Saltman got banned for a few years back? Oh and I'm guessing Mark O'Meara earned his nickname the same way 😉
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Offline Circle-G

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #6 on: Apr 03, 2017, 11:55:51 »
 Without digging out a rule book ....what exactly is the worded definition / tolerance for marking and replacing the ball in the exact same spot?
 Are we talking mm's a few thou or what, because I can guarantee every player never gets the ball back in the exact spot to the mm, ever, penaltys for the entire field  :D.. I think she should produced a snooker cue ball marker to mark with at the next tournament.... :rolleyes:
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Offline Blofeld

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #7 on: Apr 03, 2017, 13:22:12 »
Without digging out a rule book ....what exactly is the worded definition / tolerance for marking and replacing the ball in the exact same spot?
 Are we talking mm's a few thou or what, because I can guarantee every player never gets the ball back in the exact spot to the mm, ever, penaltys for the entire field  :D.. I think she should produced a snooker cue ball marker to mark with at the next tournament.... :rolleyes:

There is no defined tolerance as I guess you probably really know....and yes it is nigh on impossible to put the ball back "exactly".....but most folks can get close enough. Ms Thompson wasn't even close....looked like she misplaced it by 1/3rd of a ball width to me and this was simply because she didn't have proper perspective of how the ball lay in relation to her marker because she marked whilst stood at the side of the ball, with no third reference point (e.g. the hole) to guide her in the placement.


Did this make any difference?....almost certainly not (though only Ms T can tell us if there was some sort of distracting blemish on the green that she subconsciously avoided when replacing here ball). Was it deliberate?....almost certainly not. Do certain "arm chair" rules officials need to get a life?.....absolutely. Was the 4 shot punishment correct under the rules?....yes. Was it fair/reasonable/proportionate?....I think its harsh myself...but I'd still like to think a pro golfer might be a bit more careful knowing that they would probably be under close TV scrutiny....especially when they are marking the ball from the side.

But by and large I agree with pretty much all the sentiments expressed by previous posts. Its a less than ideal situation, makes the sport look pretty anal, more likely to penalise players who get a lot of airtime....yada yada yayda....roll on 2019 when we might see some further potential revisions to the rules over and above those that were recently suggested.



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Offline Vince Baby

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #8 on: Apr 03, 2017, 14:12:45 »
roll on 2019 when we might see some further potential revisions to the rules over and above those that were recently suggested.

Excellent!

We'll be able to mark a few feet nearer the hole if it's all so arbitrary.  :thumbup1:


Offline Dick in Shorts

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #9 on: Apr 03, 2017, 15:03:11 »
I haven't seen it - but think it would have been much fairer to have just had two shot penalty as when she signed her scorecard she didn't know about the issue - although the extra penalty is better than the previous DQ penalty

However as a pro she should know how to mark and replace a ball so at the end of the day it was her fault.

I also think it could end up being dangerous not to allow retrospective penalties - or all sorts of things could slip through - but I'm not sure that viewers should be allowed to 'intrude'. It should be up to the fellow competitors in the group to protect the rest of the field from rule infringements.

Hopefully 2019 will see a big improvement in these - and other - situations

Saltman did get banned for the same thing - but I think he did it as a matter of course - although what he hoped to gain is beyond me
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Offline Gareth

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #10 on: Apr 03, 2017, 16:18:06 »
I don't mean to do down the Ladies game but can you just imagine the ructions (and damage to the game as Stu rightly highlighted earlier) if this had occurred this coming weekend at the Masters by one of the leading competitors?!?!

"Rory wins the Masters and has his personal Major grand slam at last.............."

{Oh, hang on.......Billy Bob Mc Ginty has called in after replaying the marker placement in the third round from the 7th hole for the last 27 hours.....}

".............Rory denied Major Grand Slam due to rule infraction and suffers 4 shot penalty to lose by one shot...."




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Offline Chip_Unsure

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #11 on: Apr 03, 2017, 16:29:09 »
Completely agree Gareth.

In addition though where is the cut off? 

Finally I guess that there is a case for either closing off the scores for a round once the next round starts (so in this instance it would have been too late to apply the penalty), or remove the penalty for signing for a wrong scorecard completely. 

So you could have a player standing on the 18th green with a putt for the win and then Arthur Slugworth (Charlie and the Chocolate factory style) whispers in the players ear and says sorry mate, but sign your card now and you only lose 2 shots!

I am all for playing within the rules of the game - hey have an army of rules officials going over live footage with a fine tooth comb if you like.  However I just do not see how you can open it up to the public/ wider audience to flag up breaches.

Another thought on this.  If this rule comes gets increased visibility, then there is massive gambling opportunity as an outside agency is involved.  Just like the match fixing in cricket, if a player is a little outside contention but still in a closing group (or another situation where they are getting good tv coverage) there must be massive odds on a player getting a rules infringement penalty.  The betting syndicate, or whoever call it in and jackpot!
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Offline Scotty

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #12 on: Apr 03, 2017, 16:50:47 »
TV viewer input is non-sense. But that rule will be changed soon enough by the looks of it.

Retrospective decision making in other sports is almost non-existent, no idea why armchair fans have been allowed to do this.

Big shame, that major was hers. Not only that, it's tainted for the actual winner.

Offline YOOFALLMAN

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #13 on: Apr 03, 2017, 17:09:16 »
I get all of the above and the ramifications for the game..........but I'm also old enough to remember both what he was up to and what happened to David Robertson.....and in more recent times....the situation surrounding Elliot Saltman isn't too deeply immersed in the old memory banks....so playing  the "666" Advocate.....maybe the lovely Lexi has been at the Gas Central Heating for a long time.... :blink: 

Just sayin'..... :eyebrow:








Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: LPGA result
« Reply #14 on: Apr 03, 2017, 17:22:10 »
So what is the answer? 

Let's use Gareth's example of Rory leading the tournament on the back nine on Sunday when the TV coverage decides to show one of those montages of his rounds so far in the tournament.  While doing that someone at home notices a rules breach by Rory, maybe something that was missed previously because the Live TV didn't show that particular shot.

Now in this scenario should the rules breach be ignored once the viewer has phoned it in?  Should Rory be assessed a penalty of 2 shots?  Should he be assessed a penalty of 4 shots?  Should he be DQ'd?

Is it 'better' for the image of the game for a player to be robbed of a win because an armchair viewer calls in a rules breach, or for the guy that finishes second by one shot to be robbed of a victory because someone broke a rule but got away with it?

 

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