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Author Topic: What should i have done in this situation?  (Read 1801 times)

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Offline Scott W

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What should i have done in this situation?
« on: Oct 09, 2017, 08:33:00 »
Playing medal on Saturday, stood on 18th tee with a half decent score despite a 2 x 4 putts!

Our 18th is a par 4 with OOB on the right where it meets the practice ground which plays up the opposite way.

I hit a leaky fade down the right but was pretty confident that it would be safe enough between the tree line and OOB stakes. (I did hit provisional but that was definitely OOB as I was frustrated and lashed at it)

As we were walking down I saw a couple of ladies with green buckets collecting balls in the right rough...both in bounds and out of bounds. They were part of a beginners group lesson with our assistant Pro and were collecting balls they had sprayed all over including into where my ball had landed.

I shouted to the assistant and asked if they might of picked up my ball..."I suppose we might have done" was the response as the beginners continued picking up any white orb within reach  :picard:

A quick search of my landing area and no sign of my ball (clearly marked with 3 blue dots and line through the line up mark)

I proceeded to pick through 3 green baskets but no sign of it...a few even had random balls in their pockets!!

Eventually after 5 mins I accepted the inevitable and NR'd very frustrated and somewhat gob smacked at the stupidity of the pro for collecting balls from in play rough during a medal!

So purely out of curiosity...if my ball had been in one of the baskets what would I have done....there was no way they would have been able to say with any confidence whether it was collected from in bounds or out?

Thoughts?

« Last Edit: Oct 09, 2017, 12:06:58 by Scott W »
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Offline Blofeld

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #1 on: Oct 09, 2017, 09:11:28 »
decision 18-1/5 is the closest I can find to your situation...


Q: At a par-3 hole, part of the green and the adjoining area cannot be seen from the tee. In this unseen area are a bunker, fairway and a dry water hazard.

A player plays towards this obscured area and cannot tell where the ball comes to rest. When the players are near the green, they see a boy running away with a ball in his hand. The boy throws the ball back and the player identifies it as his ball.

The player is unable to determine from where to play his next stroke under Rule 18-1. He does not know whether the ball was on the green, on the fairway or in one of the hazards.

How should he proceed?

A. As it was impossible to know where the ball should have been replaced under Rule 18-1, the player should, in equity (Rule 1-4), drop the ball in an area which was neither the most, nor the least, favourable of the various areas where it was equally possible that the ball originally lay.


Now in your position....you had an unfavourable option (out of bounds) and a favourable option (inbounds).....so I'm not sure how you could choose "in equity".....I guess it would come down to how certain you could be about the probability of the ball being in/out of bounds.

I guess what would seem most equitable (but certainly wrong) thing to do would be to drop it inbounds but add a penalty shot...so you dont get fully punished for the ball being OOB but you dont get away scot free with your shot that might have been OOB.....but like I say....this would almost certainly be the wrong way to proceed.....there just doesnt seem to be a fair option in your case.

Need someone who knows a lot more than me to adjudicate on this one!!.....need Colin L to put in an appearance!!!!

The pro would however have got an earful from me.
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Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #2 on: Oct 09, 2017, 09:34:46 »
Definitely an interesting one!

In your position (if the ball would have been found in a basket) I would have dropped a ball in bounds and proceeded under the playing two balls approach (obviously declaring the ball in bounds to be the ball you want to count).  You can then ask for a ruling from the committee before signing your card.

As to what the committee would rule, seeing the decision that Nick posted makes me think that there is no correct ruling, so it would seem sensible to apply the 'known or virtually certain' criteria that would come into play if a ball was potentially lost in a hazard.  If you and your playing partners all agreed that it would have been in bounds then that would likely be good enough, but if there was reasonable doubt that it may have been OB then the fairest course of action would be to declare it OB to protect the rest of the field.

I agree with Nick though that the Pro deserves an earful!

Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #3 on: Oct 09, 2017, 09:37:22 »
Oh, and when you said you NR'd, did you just NR the 18th or NR the whole round and not submit the card?  Always remember that you can still get a cut if you NR on a hole as the nett double bogey adjustment willl be made for handicapping purposes.

Offline YOOFALLMAN

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #4 on: Oct 09, 2017, 10:10:44 »
Oh, and when you said you NR'd, did you just NR the 18th or NR the whole round and not submit the card?  Always remember that you can still get a cut if you NR on a hole as the nett double bogey adjustment willl be made for handicapping purposes.

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Offline Scott W

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #5 on: Oct 09, 2017, 10:59:13 »
Thanks gents...in hindsight I should have dropped one and then asked afterwards...

Assistant pro is a lady and the beginners group all women so I controlled my language just...

Both playing partners believed after I'd hit it that "it would be fine" i.e. between trees and OOB

...a par would have had me joint first  :picard:

Net double for NR got me in buffer (Nr'd hole and submitted the card)

....oh it was an eventful day ...I had a 2 so a few quid from that....it was on the par 4 10th .... a wedge from 132 yards  :clap:
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Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #6 on: Oct 09, 2017, 11:48:23 »
Thanks gents...in hindsight I should have dropped one and then asked afterwards...

As you didn't actually find the ball in one of the baskets then I don't think playing a second ball would really have been an option.  As it stands the ball could have been stuck up a tree, have ricocheted 30 yards backwards, or just been buried in the rough and you didn't see it.  It must be known or virtually certain that a ball has been moved by an outside agency, and as you never saw it come to rest I don't think that is the case.

Offline Scott W

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Re: What should i have done in this situation?
« Reply #7 on: Oct 09, 2017, 12:11:12 »
Yes good point Stu...total mess TBH
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Offline euros

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #8 on: Oct 09, 2017, 13:12:09 »
As you didn't actually find the ball in one of the baskets then I don't think playing a second ball would really have been an option.  As it stands the ball could have been stuck up a tree, have ricocheted 30 yards backwards, or just been buried in the rough and you didn't see it.  It must be known or virtually certain that a ball has been moved by an outside agency, and as you never saw it come to rest I don't think that is the case.

I once had a similar thing at abersoch during a mixed foursome comp (why the feck did i agree to play in that!!!). The playing partners tee shot on the 13th went violently left off the tee and over a large bush hence we couldn't see where it landed. by the supposed area landing area there is a ditch to which they said that the ball had obviously gone into. In my mind, due to the amount it was turning off the tee there was no way they could be certain that the ball had gone into the ditch and not the trees right beside it. They wanted to drop it by the ditch but we said for certainty it was better to go and play it again, after the woman getting in a right mif with me they did and struck the next one into the ditch  :D

the hag then proceeded to bad mouth me for weeks in the club. Never again!
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Offline Dick in Shorts

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Re: What should i have done in this situation?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 09, 2017, 13:58:28 »
I'm thinking that as the ball wasn't found and that a provisional had been played - thus making it uncertain that the ball was in bounds that a third ball should have been played from the tee.  It would have been better to walk back to the tee and played 5 off the tee - whether or not you played a dropped ball as described above using the rule that allows a decision to then be made by the committee - although in my experience. you might struggle to find a committee that has an understanding of the rules - and don't even think of asking a pro :picard:
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Offline Scott W

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Re: What should i have done in this situation?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 09, 2017, 15:00:59 »
Was first round for a month so was going in with low expectations (also Medal in October with Winter Rules seems incongruous but is always the case at our place in October!)
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Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: What should i have done in this situation?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 09, 2017, 15:02:44 »
It would have been better to walk back to the tee and played 5 off the tee

After hitting two balls off the tee and then spending 5 minutes looking for a ball, it would be a brave man to walk back to the tee and announce that "I'm going to hit another one and be 5 off the tee" to the group waiting on the tee!  At that point an 8 is your best hope, so unless you have an amazing round going where a quad bogey will still get you in the prizes, just pick up and take the net double bogey adjustment.  And if you did have an amazing score in play then hitting a second provisional while still on the tee would be the way forward, not walking back to do so.

Offline Scott W

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Re: What should i have done in this situation?
« Reply #12 on: Oct 09, 2017, 15:11:05 »
...actually we were first group out and had a good hole gap so walking back was an option but as I said I needed par for a net 70 so decided to take the net double :-)

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Offline 3puttwizard

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #13 on: Oct 09, 2017, 17:45:12 »
Oofftt....!  The Match/Competition Secretary's Bugbear  :ninja:  Culprits should be strung up by the gonads...!! :curse:

Hmm...I just normally shred the card , bin it and put NR on every hole on the computer.....  :chuckle:

Lots of others do aswell.
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Offline Fieldsy

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Re: What would i have done in this situation?
« Reply #14 on: Oct 09, 2017, 17:55:11 »
Hmm...I just normally shred the card , bin it and put NR on every hole on the computer.....  :chuckle:

Lots of others do aswell.

I'd like to bet that the Pro would have taken the "wrath of 3PW" as well though ;)

 

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