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Author Topic: Proposed world handicap system  (Read 3577 times)

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Offline Blofeld

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #30 on: Feb 21, 2018, 23:24:09 »
I'm sure you will be familiar with The Pope of Slope website... the page linked below indicates that courses are actually rated and different weightings are used to determine Course Rating and Bogey Rating...

http://www.popeofslope.com/courserating/twoparameter.html

Knowing how the relative Scratch and Bogey ratings are used to calculate the Slope I can reverse the formula and work out the Bogey Rating for my home course.... will be then interesting to look at real scores and see how closely theory and reality match up.... but that's something that can wait until I have a particularly boring conference call to listen to!!   :chuckle:
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #31 on: Feb 21, 2018, 23:32:29 »

Of course I do wonder whether empirical data would be a better way to calculate slope given the thousands of rounds of data that every course has collected.  Even if you don’t have scratch golfers at a club, the performance of 18 handicappers in relation to SSS should give a good indication of slope rating, and if you factor in the performance of all handicap levels then that gives you tens of thousands of data points to work with.

Slope is the difference in difficulty when comparing a scratch golfers round and an 18 handicap players round. You need both for the calc.

It’s needed because some difficult courses for an 18 are actually easy for a scratch player. Conversely, some courses are difficult for all. Our current system doesn’t allow for this to be shown.

Also, consider mid length dry courses with trees and tiny hard bouncy greens. They can be hard for a scratch player and easy for an 18 handicap (think old man running ball on the deck) - current CSS doesn’t accommodate that, slope does (to an extent)

Offline david92

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #32 on: Feb 22, 2018, 09:43:47 »
I really don't believe the majority of golfers playing social golf will enter their scores into the system when they are playing 4bbb, etc...as for the minutiae of detail on how its calculated, etc...I just post my scores and see what the system spits out....usually a +0.1!!!!
« Last Edit: Feb 22, 2018, 22:42:35 by david92 »
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Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #33 on: Feb 22, 2018, 10:27:19 »
Slope is the difference in difficulty when comparing a scratch golfers round and an 18 handicap players round. You need both for the calc.

It’s needed because some difficult courses for an 18 are actually easy for a scratch player. Conversely, some courses are difficult for all. Our current system doesn’t allow for this to be shown.

Also, consider mid length dry courses with trees and tiny hard bouncy greens. They can be hard for a scratch player and easy for an 18 handicap (think old man running ball on the deck) - current CSS doesn’t accommodate that, slope does (to an extent)

I don't think we're talking about the same things here Scott.  I understand how slope works and what the current failings of the SSS/ CSS based system are, I was taking more about what the best way to calculate the slope rating would be.

The current method just takes a second assessed rating and compares them.  I am wondering if rather than taking two assessed ratings, you could derive the second rating from actual posted scores over the last couple of years to see what the average score plot looks like for different handicap levels.  In theory the best fit line from a plot of scores from a high slope rated course would be different to those from a lower slope rated course.  So you could potentially use SSS as a base (as SSS seems to match scratch rating quite closely from what I have seen) and then predict what the slope rating for a course should be, and then compare it to what the actual assessed slope rating is.  This is potentially something that Nick could do for his own course now that it has been assessed.

But we are drifting off into geeky statistical land now, and I think that the more interesting aspect (for non-geeks) will be how the culture of recording scores will/ should change from 2020 going forward.

Offline Scotty

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #34 on: Feb 22, 2018, 12:58:58 »
Indeed, I heard that's what they are doing. For clubs that don't have any players around scratch (so no scratch data) they will do as so:

Use own 18 handicap data and make summary

Compare this summary to other course data where:

a) 18 handicap data is similar
b) SSS (Course rating) is similar
c) slope is known for that similar course

Thus deducing scratch player data. But still, this may not be accurate for the reasons I mentioned above, which is a concern for some clubs.

Offline Blofeld

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #35 on: Feb 22, 2018, 13:20:41 »
I don't think we're talking about the same things here Scott.  I understand how slope works and what the current failings of the SSS/ CSS based system are, I was taking more about what the best way to calculate the slope rating would be.

The current method just takes a second assessed rating and compares them.  I am wondering if rather than taking two assessed ratings, you could derive the second rating from actual posted scores over the last couple of years to see what the average score plot looks like for different handicap levels.  In theory the best fit line from a plot of scores from a high slope rated course would be different to those from a lower slope rated course.  So you could potentially use SSS as a base (as SSS seems to match scratch rating quite closely from what I have seen) and then predict what the slope rating for a course should be, and then compare it to what the actual assessed slope rating is.  This is potentially something that Nick could do for his own course now that it has been assessed.

But we are drifting off into geeky statistical land now, and I think that the more interesting aspect (for non-geeks) will be how the culture of recording scores will/ should change from 2020 going forward.

Watch this space!!!!
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Offline Dick in Shorts

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #36 on: Feb 22, 2018, 22:25:00 »
I’m sure I’ve seen the playing handicap allowances printed at US clubs thus allowing the player to know before he plays.

It also appears that the US system allows you to enter your score after play with no requirement to ‘log in’ before the round - unlike supplementary score rounds here at present.

I also,understand there is nothing - apart from integrity - to stop you either not enter your score or indeed to enter a fictitious round .

As others have stated not sure if either of those would make a big difference to your handicap unless you did it on many occasions.

I’m sure we’ll all get used to,it as it’s been like this for large numbers of golfers for many years
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Offline inoculator

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #37 on: Feb 23, 2018, 09:35:39 »
Could make for even longer 4BBB rounds as everyone will want to putt out now.

I usually pick up if partner has finished the hole or has a tap in.
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Offline david92

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #38 on: Feb 23, 2018, 10:20:34 »
Could make for even longer 4BBB rounds as everyone will want to putt out now.

I usually pick up if partner has finished the hole or has a tap in.

I'm pretty sure if you all agree on the tee that this is a casual round then this won't be an issue
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Offline Cols_Ears

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #39 on: Feb 23, 2018, 12:01:52 »
Could make for even longer 4BBB rounds as everyone will want to putt out now.

I usually pick up if partner has finished the hole or has a tap in.
There are actually recommendations relating to that in the USGA system - have a look on the previous link I posted - they also say you can do it for matchplay...
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Offline Stu-Pid

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #40 on: Feb 23, 2018, 12:22:40 »
As Col says, the USGA system allows for such instances, and rounds are expected to be recorded for handicapping purposes even if they are casual rounds or played in an alternate format (e.g. 4BBB).

I don't think most UK golfers comprehend just how different the US system is, and so how tricky it will actually be to come up with an aligned worldwide system.

As an example, if a player in the US plays a casual round in a 4BBB format then they still are expected to record their scores for handicap purposes and use the 'most likely score' for holes that they don't finish.  They also don't have a net double bogey adjustment built into their HC calculations, and instead they use a maximum score per hole (regardless of par) which is different depending on your handicap (max score of double bogey for 0- 9, 7 for 10- 19, and 8 for 20+).  If they don't play a hole for some reason (such as the green is out of play), then they are expected to assume a net par on that hole.

So under an aligned system either the US players are going to have to not use 'most likely score' (and so either putt everything out or not record nearly as many rounds for HC purposes) or the UK will have to adopt 'most likely score' (or similar) and start to record many, many more rounds for HC purposes than they currently do (this would be my preference).  Or of course they could fudge it so that UK and US do things very differently, but then it is far from being the unified system that they are trying to achieve!

Here is the relevant section from the USGA HC guide which includes examples:

Quote
Section 4 ADJUSTING HOLE SCORES

Definitions

Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.

The game of golf is based on the premise that a player will play as well as the player can play. Under the USGA Handicap System, each player is required to record a hole score for a hole not finished, not played, or not played under "The Rules of Golf," and to reduce any hole score when it is higher than the maximum number allowed under Equitable Stroke Control.

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score. The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3. This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1.)

There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

Example 1: A and B are partners in a four-ball stroke play competition. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A lies two, 18 feet from the hole. B lies two, 25 feet from the hole. B holes a putt for a 3. A picks up on the hole, because A cannot better B's score. A records X-4 on the scorecard because 4 is A's most likely score.

Example 2: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A has holed out in 4; B has a 30-foot putt for a 5. B has lost the hole, and picks up. B records X-6 on the scorecard because 6 is B's most likely score.

Example 3: A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A is one foot from the hole, lying 4. B is 10 feet from the hole, lying 3. B putts and misses. They both concede a half. Both players record X-5 because that is their most likely score.

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Decision 4-2/1 and Section 5-2b.)

4-3. Equitable Stroke Control

All scores for handicap purposes, including tournament scores, are subject to the application of Equitable Stroke Control (ESC). This mandatory procedure reduces high hole scores for handicap purposes in order to make handicaps more representative of a player's potential ability.

A handicap determined from scores to which ESC has not been applied may not be termed a Handicap Index.

ESC is used when a player's actual or most likely score exceeds a maximum number, based on the table below, for the player's Course Handicap from the tees played. (For nine-hole Equitable Stroke Control table, See Section 10-5c.)


Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 6 has a maximum number of par plus two strokes (double bogey) for any hole. A player with a Course Handicap of 13 has a maximum number of 7 for any hole regardless of par. A player with a Course Handicap of 42 has a maximum number of 10 for any hole.

A player without an established Handicap Index must use the maximum Handicap Index of 36.4 for men, or 40.4 for women, converted to a Course Handicap, to determine a maximum ESC number.

There is no limit to the number of individual hole scores on which an Equitable Stroke Control reduction may be made.

Example: The round of a player with a Course Handicap of 23 includes individual hole scores of 9, 10, and 11. ESC reduces each hole score to the applicable maximum of 8. The player's adjusted gross score enters the scoring record for handicap purposes 6 strokes less than had ESC not been applied (9-8) + (10-8) + (11-8) = 6.

In consulting the Equitable Stroke Control table, a player uses the Course Handicap derived from that player's actual Handicap Index, disregarding any strokes added or subtracted because of a condition of competition, a handicap allowance, players competing from different tees, or men and women from the same tees. (See Sections 3-5, 9-3c, and 9-4.)

Example 1: A player with a Handicap Index of 35.4 and a Course Handicap of 39 might enter a competition in which the conditions of the competition establish a maximum Handicap Index limit of 25.4, which would yield a Course Handicap of 28. When applying ESC, that player uses the Course Handicap of 39.

Example 2: A player with a Course Handicap of 30 might play in a four-ball stroke play competition in which the handicap allowance is 90 percent, or 27 strokes. When applying ESC, that player uses the Course Handicap of 30.

Example 3: A player with a Handicap Index of 25.4 and a Course Handicap of 28 might enter a competition in which players are competing from different tees. The difference between the higher-rated set of tees (a USGA Course Rating of 73.0) and the lower-rated set of tees (a USGA Course Rating of 71.2) is 2 strokes (73.0-71.2=1.8 rounded to 2). From the course with the USGA Course Rating of 73.0, the player would receive two additional strokes, which would give the player a Course Handicap of 30 (see Decision 3-5/1 for the only exception). However, when applying ESC, the player uses a Course Handicap of 28.

Example 4: A player with a Handicap Index of 25.4 and a Course Handicap of 28 is in a tournament where the player shot a score of 92 without applying ESC. The player turns in the score of 92 for the tournament, but must include any ESC adjustments when posting for handicap purposes.

Under no circumstances must the procedures of this section be used by a player to manipulate a Handicap Index. The Handicap Index of a player who uses this section for such a purpose must be adjusted or withdrawn by the Handicap Committee under Section 8-4.

Offline Dick in Shorts

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #41 on: Mar 03, 2018, 08:07:29 »
Was reading an article in a Golf mag online with CONGU person and they haven’t finalised a lot of the detail yet.

It did say they expected recreational golf rounds would be similar to Supplementary scores in that there would a requirement to “sign in” before play.

It also seemed to imply  there could be some differences with ROW as they would still be responsible for our handicap system

Lots of decisions and nitty gritty still to be decided
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Offline scotstam

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #42 on: Mar 04, 2018, 06:59:39 »
Hi guys 
Been a while since I posted anything but still log on and read the site often.
As some of you know I moved to Dubai several years ago which uses the USPGA handicap system.
My CONGU handicap from the UK in 2010 was accepted when I joined my club over here. I submitted 5 cards and was given my UAE handicap which was 6 shots above my CONGU. Within 3 months of playing most weeks and submitting all scores I was back down to the handicap I had.
It is mandatory here that all rounds played are registered.
You have 72 hours to submit your score otherwise a penalty score is submitted on your behalf. The penalty score is equal to the best score you have entered in your previous 10 rounds.
If playing 4BBB you still enter a score , the only exception is when playing scramble , green some or other novelty events. Every single round I have played in the past 8 years is viewable on the Golferscard website and application.
Adjustments of playing handicap is done after every competition. If playing in a social game , once you enter your score you have a projected playing handicap which changes after the next competition or on the last day of the month, whichever comes first.
I can view my current and projected handicap at anytime by logging in to the website or application.
We also have a handicap committee which has the power to adjust handicaps as deemed required.
I will welcome the world system as it annoys me that my CONGU has lapsed yet when visiting the UK I can't compete in any competitions as I don't have a competition CONGU.
Any questions on how we use the system over here let me know. I just think it gives a better reflection on the current playing ability of the golfer and allows for changes when the individual is going through a bad time and not have to wait for months of 0.1 adjustments

Offline Blofeld

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #43 on: Mar 04, 2018, 09:36:23 »
Hi guys 
Been a while since I posted anything but still log on and read the site often.
As some of you know I moved to Dubai several years ago which uses the USPGA handicap system.
My CONGU handicap from the UK in 2010 was accepted when I joined my club over here. I submitted 5 cards and was given my UAE handicap which was 6 shots above my CONGU. Within 3 months of playing most weeks and submitting all scores I was back down to the handicap I had.
It is mandatory here that all rounds played are registered.
You have 72 hours to submit your score otherwise a penalty score is submitted on your behalf. The penalty score is equal to the best score you have entered in your previous 10 rounds.
If playing 4BBB you still enter a score , the only exception is when playing scramble , green some or other novelty events. Every single round I have played in the past 8 years is viewable on the Golferscard website and application.
Adjustments of playing handicap is done after every competition. If playing in a social game , once you enter your score you have a projected playing handicap which changes after the next competition or on the last day of the month, whichever comes first.
I can view my current and projected handicap at anytime by logging in to the website or application.
We also have a handicap committee which has the power to adjust handicaps as deemed required.
I will welcome the world system as it annoys me that my CONGU has lapsed yet when visiting the UK I can't compete in any competitions as I don't have a competition CONGU.
Any questions on how we use the system over here let me know. I just think it gives a better reflection on the current playing ability of the golfer and allows for changes when the individual is going through a bad time and not have to wait for months of 0.1 adjustments

Couple of Questions from me....

1) How do you submit your score..i.e. what is the process? Do you just leave it in a box for someone to process or is there a web portal/mobile app via which you enter your scores.
2) Do you declare in advance that you are playing? If me and my mate turn up on spec after work for a casual 18 ....how does the system know that we have played and therefore expects a card?
3) Is there any "checking of the card" by "someone in authority" to ensure that what you have submitted is accurate and you haven't just made up some scores to help massage your h'cap (in whatever direction you choose).
4) Do you allow gimme's? How much adherence to the "strict rules of golf Mr. Bond" do you see in the casual rounds (not just yourself but others) that are submitted?

cheers....interesting to hear the perspective of someone actually using the current USPGA system.
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Offline scotstam

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Re: Proposed world handicap system
« Reply #44 on: Mar 04, 2018, 11:46:04 »
Hi 
In response to your questions.
1. Each clubhouse has a terminal located at reception. Your round is registered prior to play. After play you can either enter the score at that terminal or it can be done via the mobile application. You have 72 hours to enter your score after it has been registered.
2. The onus to register the game played and complete the score entry is with the individual for " bounce" games. If it is the monthly medal the game is registered for you by the club and all you have to do is enter your score. every time you tee off the game should be registered and completed even if only 9 holes. If for example you play 14 holes and the game is not finished the rules state a best estimate for the holes not played should be entered
3. All competition scores are checked and approved by playing partners and by club management. Bounce game scores are done by playing partners. I have the option of checking any other player within the UAE and see that a correct score has been completed.
4. We do have gimmes out with competitions same as anywhere else. The length of the gimme is of course subjective but only really happens in match play. Large majority of the time the ball is in the hole. There is no change to the rules of golf over here.

I am not going to say the system is perfect. At our club Arabian Ranches it is very well policed. A year or so back we had one woman who was not submitting any scores out with competitions. She was playing every weekend with her husband but no scores were entered. FYI the game is marked "T" for tournament and "G " for general play. She came on the radar of the committee who in no uncertain terms politely informed her that all scores must be entered. Or else she would be asked to surrender her playing rights.

Like anything else if you want to cheat or not do things correctly certain people will always find a way. It relies on integrity and honesty like everything else in golf.
Have a look at the website we use.

https://www.golferscard.ae/members.asp

Cheers


 

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